In Philadelphia, where a do-or-die game in the baseball World Series was about to start right across the parking lot, the Flyers sold 18,667 tickets, about 96 percent of capacity. (The Flyers game started at 5 p.m.; the baseball game at 8 p.m.) On Long Island, home to many fans of the New York Yankees, the other team in the World Series, 10,846 tickets were sold, or about 67 percent of capacity at Nassau Coliseum. (The Isles game started at 7 p.m.)
And then there was Phoenix, where the Coyotes were bought out of bankruptcy earlier in the day. An occasion for joy among local fans? Maybe, but only 5,855 tickets were sold for the game at Jobing.com Arena — a record low for the franchise, breaking the old mark of 6,495 set in the previous game.
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James Mirtle
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Oof
Please send that team back to Canada to a real fanbase.
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by 49er16 on Nov 3, 2009 5:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You would be surprised at how bad attendance has been in some of those “real fan bases” of Canada in the past.
That said, 5855 announced is brutal. How many tickets were actually sold? 4500 maybe? We’re getting down to Oakland Seals territory.
by Resolute on Nov 3, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A “real fanbase” that left 5,000 empty seats at the home of a team five years removed from a dynasty?
Even Canadian markets aren’t immune to the influence of bad ownership and bad results.
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by Doogie2K on Nov 4, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, look at who was #25 and #26 that year, though.
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by saskhab on Nov 4, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No. 25 and No. 26 are actually for Hartford and Winnipeg. The numbers are from the 1995-1996 season. The attendence numbers for the Coyotoes in their first year (1996-1997) were 15,604.
Ottawa, Edmonton, and Winnipeg—three “strong” traditional markets, all sitting at the bottom of the league because their teams were bad. Amazing, that. Ottawa’s attendence actually dipped below 10,000 in its third season of existance after averaging 10,485 in the franchise’s debut season. Kinda punches a big, honking hole in the whole bad market theory, don’t it?
by Forsch31 on Nov 4, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, 25’s Long Island and 24’s Hartford, but who’s counting? ;)
Anyway, Ottawa was a terrible expansion team, and I believe that was their first year in the Palladium (now SBP), which is also a decidedly out-of-the-way arena. Winnipeg, as noted, was playing out the string before moving to Phoenix, and Edmonton was going through the waning years of the Pocklington era, in which there really wasn’t much to cheer for, even if the fans did feel like lining that douchebag’s pockets. (Two years later, the team was hours away from being moved to Houston; suffice to say, the fans saw that one coming from a mile away.)
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by Doogie2K on Nov 4, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The point that I’m getting at here, by the way, isn’t that Canada’s different and special, so we should excuse the attendance foibles of the 90s, but that the attendance foibles of the 90s prove that Canada isn’t different and special, and a shit team with shit management will still fail at the gate, as long as that team isn’t in Toronto.
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by Doogie2K on Nov 4, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Sens were also playing out of the Civic Centre back then, which I don’t know if it holds much more than the 10,485 they averaged.
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by saskhab on Nov 4, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, not really. The capacity of the Ottawa Civic Centre was generously 10575. They only moved into the (then-called) Palladium partway through the ’95-96 season, the year quoted in the link.
by Fultron on Nov 4, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, though it bears pointing out that the Jets were a sub-.500 team playing a lame-duck year in Winnipeg (it’s 1995-96), and the Islanders were terrible back then, too (22-50-10).
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by Doogie2K on Nov 4, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is just plain sad. It is unfortunate how the whole Phoenix scenario unfolded. I really hope that they are able to do something there. And if not, then be realistic, and move the team to a viable hockey market, be it Canada, or not. Just make the best decision for the NHL, and its fans!
by lightweight on Nov 3, 2009 6:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If our new owner manages to run the team well and the Coyotes ice a competitive product and the fans still stay away, then by all means move them. At some point even we die-hards have to face the music – even if we hold out far longer than everyone else.
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by zyllyx on Nov 5, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t believe they could get 3/4 full even if they were giving away free Zeppoles. Its a shame as the building is fantastic for hockey.
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by Blackcapricorn on Nov 4, 2009 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I go to all the NYR home games there, and even a few Devils games…but Id probably go to some more games there too if they gave away zeppoles. It is a great place to see hockey.
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by poploser on Nov 4, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I go to the Sabres games and then when an interesting team like the Nucks come to town. I have never seen it 80-90% full. Never. I might go though if they were giving away free zeppoles.
The population of Pominville keeps rising!
by Blackcapricorn on Nov 4, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You know what’s great about the World Series? 5 Games in 5 Days.
I normally don’t pay attention to baseball, but their playoff schedule makes for some very watchable TV.
by FourFeetOfCurl on Nov 3, 2009 8:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Never mind that because baseball bends over so much for TV, they’re playing in New York and Philadelphia outdoors in November.
by dzuunmod on Nov 3, 2009 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
season got started late because of the World Baseball Classic.
by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the fact that they even regularly play in October when there are a number of northern teams who consistently have bad weather in October is dumb enough as it is.
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by IAmJoe on Nov 3, 2009 10:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any sport that cancels due to weather isn’t worth watching.
by rsm on Nov 4, 2009 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hockey, football and soccer have all cancelled due to weather in the past too.
by Resolute on Nov 4, 2009 8:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If weather's that important
why does hockey play inside? Wasn’t the game born on the pond?
by twoeightnine on Nov 4, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Have a look at this year’s postseason dates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Major_League_Baseball_season#League_Division_Series
Are you telling me they couldn’t have compressed that at all? Really?
by dzuunmod on Nov 5, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the schedule is the only thing “watchable” about the games. There’s nothing more boring to watch than baseball.
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by poploser on Nov 4, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evidently you haven’t watched the Leafs much this year.
by Resolute on Nov 4, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well, the Leafs are like a tragi-comedy on ice.
I’d also argue that there’s a hell of a lot less enjoyable things to watch than baseball. Particularly in-person.
by RedBirdie on Nov 4, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s no accounting for taste. Why don’t people get this? Your boredom is another person’s absorbing pastime. What’s so wrong about that? Live and let live and all that?
by dzuunmod on Nov 5, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, what did you expect?
After a summer of being shoved through a PR meatgrinder, after seven seasons of following a still-young doormat in the league, with a still-uncertain ownership situation while being pounded into them by everyone that the team’s going to move sooner or later despite what the league says or wants…how do you expect the fanbase to react? In this economy, how do you expect any fanbase, in whatever kind of market, to financially commit to a team whose future has been debated over and over for months? This isn’t a franchise with a long or winning history in Phoenix; comparing them to two franchises that have one means absolutely nothing. The Islanders’ and Coyotes’ attendence problems are similar in only in that they are attendence problems.
It’s going to take far, far more than a hot, one-month start for attendence to recover. This isn’t analysis, this is reactionary thinking.
by Forsch31 on Nov 3, 2009 8:53 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Couldn’t have said it better myself. That being said, as one of the 5,855 fans that were in attendance…it was really sad.
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by Moridin417 on Nov 4, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve always felt it’s unfair to say an area doesn’t have a fanbase for a team or sport when the organization in charge of said team does everything wrong and provides no real reason for people to show up. A bad team in sports will not draw well with few exceptions. When a team is so bad that no one who could be considered a fan thinks their team has any chance of even making the playoffs, there will be empty seats and money problems. It’s very tough in a league that depends a lot on the gate. And a team that doesn’t yet have a generational following cannot make up the money with merchandise sales. Newer teams in newer markets will always be at a disadvantage when the team’s performance is bad.
All that said, money is the bottom line. If no one is willing to pay for the team and the losses that will come until the fanbase returns and grows, then the team will move to greener pastures. These thing usually happen not because of what should happen but, simply because of what does happen.
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by Urban Sombrero on Nov 4, 2009 1:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
This just illustrates how soft the support is for hockey in Phoenix.
Any kind of news just crushes attendance. Even if some shady new plan is cooked up to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix the positive impact on attendance is going to be minimal. And God forbid that in 12-24 even the first hint of looking at relocation options slips out.
It’s a failed venture.
by HockeyinHD on Nov 4, 2009 6:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well Put
I just don’t understand how Bettman can keep pushing the bad. Some of the expansion markets are coming along into their own, but Phoenix clearly just isn’t working. Take the bad with the good and learn from your mistakes, Gary.
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by Rob Luker on Nov 4, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The expansion markets that are working have had some success, like San Jose or Carolina. Phoenix has been over 80 points twice in the past seven seasons while being in a hard-to-get arena, and then this past summer happens. The Coyotes have had a grand total of 12 seasons in a non-traditional market. Historically, it takes either instant success (Dallas, Colorado) or long-term fanbase building (Carolina, Washington) for new markets to become stable and healthy. And Phoenix has not had either opportunity.
What I don’t understand is how some people compare markets without acknowledging the factors that have work against any success within specific markets. No franchise in the NHL has gone through what the Coyotes have gone through this year. Maybe not since the Americans.
by Forsch31 on Nov 4, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget the California White Skates Golden Seals. Bad ownership, bad team, bad attendance.
The Americans were bad (and the Brooklyn move-that-wasn’t made no sense), but I don’t think they were quite run into the ground the way the Seals and Coyotes were. I could be wrong; I have limited knowledge of the pre-Original Six era.
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by Doogie2K on Nov 4, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any kind of news just crushes attendance.
What a ridiculous statement. I mean this is just silly. “Any kind of news”? You actually think that what PHO has gone through is just “any kind of news”?
This endless monitoring of PHO attendance is evidence of a lack of understanding of who buys hockey tickets. FYI, it is not “fans” who buy most of the tickets, PARTICULARLY the tickets for the seats which show up as empty on the TV broadcasts.
Companies buy tickets. More importantly, they are the ones who buy the $300 tickets down near the glass.
I strongly suspect that the people, like HockeyinHD, have no idea as to how companies spend marketing money. To provide a helpful hint, they don’t buy tickets – especially season tickets – for entities that are in chapter XI. They also don’t line up at the ticket window the day after said entity comes out of chapter XI. It seems like this is necessary to point this out, but i find it amazing that I even have to do so.
by Gerald on Nov 4, 2009 7:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of ridiculous statements...
“This endless monitoring of PHO attendance is evidence of a lack of understanding of who buys hockey tickets.”
Gerald… that’s kind of the point. Not enough people are buying tickets, and they haven’t been for years. This isn’t some ‘chicken or the egg’ debate. If there was grassroots support for the Coyotes in Phoenix, evidenced by butts in seats and general interest in the team, you can bet your ass that there would be a nice list of companies looking to spend their ad dollars on the club, either through suite purchases, advertising arrangements, miscellaneous sponsorships, etc. Companies aren’t stupid. They want to be associated with things people like. It never, ever, EVER goes the other way around. Companies are not ever, in a million years, going to dump a bunch of money advertising somewhere that they hope eventually draws eyeballs.
The problem is that nobody is watching, and that indicates not too many people care. That is, sadly, the ballgame. When the games aren’t on local TV because the team never sells out, I mean… that’s a dealbreaker for business ad buy. What, a company is going to spend x hundreds of thousands of dollars to reach 13-14 thousand people a night for 3 hours? Please. They could take out a half hour add on the Home Shopping Network for that money and crush those audience figures. Or, you know, advertise with the Suns, or the Cardinals…
Gerald, it’s not like everything was fine and dandy for the Coyotes and then the day after Moyes put the team in bankruptcy it all suddenly and inexplicably went to poop. The franchise has been a financial disaster for at least half a decade now. Now, of course the recent insanity by Moyes, Balsillie and Bettman has accelerated the decay of the viability of the Coyotes, but it’s not like it reversed some upward trend or anything. The Coyotes have had almost absurdly low ticket prices for their entire franchise history, and even that hasn’t generated any real traction or long-term fan interest.
by HockeyinHD on Nov 4, 2009 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, companies buy tickets...
but they wouldn’t at all if there were no actual hockey fans filling up the arena making it a fun place to watch a game. Why do middle and small market teams sell not just season tickets geared towards fans with plenty of money and companies, but also discounted weekend packages, pick-your-game packages, student discounts, etc. and free bobbleheads to the average hockey fan? Because the more the people the better the experience, and the more likely that they will sell those $300 tickets down near the glass. And because they need to provide those opportunities or else half the arena would be empty. The first 4 teams that I looked at (Devils, Blue Jackets, Avs, and Sabres) all had advertisements for discounts and packages on their front pages. Why? Because those are ways that teams sell lots of tickets. And when they are selling many “family night” tickets for 4 tickets for $99, it isn’t companies buying them up. Teams rely on those fans, because if it was just corporate season ticket holders in the arena, the majority of the teams in the NHL would have attendance similar to my beloved Islanders. And if the NHL average was only 10,000 a game, then there probably wouldn’t be a league anymore.
BTW, after a quick glance at several teams ticket prices, there are very few that sell tickets by the glass for $300.
I’m not saying that teams don’t sell large amounts of tickets to companies, but in my opinion your making it seem like the entire league is like the Rangers or Maple Leafs or Knicks, when it looks to me like most of the league relies very heavily on the average fan to come to the game.
by DanNOLA on Nov 4, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We knew this was going to happen. It was well documented that season ticket renewals and sales effectively ended as soon as Moyes declared bankruptcy and reached an agreement to sell to Balsillie. If Phoenix had sold it’s regular amount of season tickets, they would definitely be drawing over 10,000 just based largely on that.
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by saskhab on Nov 4, 2009 8:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this point as well. Last year when the team was not nearly as good as it is this year, the team still drew on average 13,000+. This team hasn’t had any opportunity to market or grow and when you throw in the NFC Championship run that the Cardinals made last year, some “fans” have shifted their preferred sports viewing to what they consider to be the “better” team – this is very much how the Phoenix market operates…D-Backs can’t draw worth a damn, and the Suns (the oldest franchise in the city with a pretty good history and lots of recent success) are desperate to put butts in the seats (I got home opener and Cavs tickets for $25!) This is a weird sports city and it’s not clear that the team will succeed here…even I can recognize that. But given a generally competent ownership that makes some good decisions and a playoff-caliber team (which we finally have), there’s no reason that those numbers won’t rebound back up to 13-15K fans per game…
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by Moridin417 on Nov 4, 2009 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As a further aside, comparing anything about Phoenix’s fanbase to Philadelphia’s fanbase is ludicrous…being a Philly fan living in Phoenix, it is night and day. Philadelphia has some of the most crazy, diehard fans you will ever meet. They sold out the Wachovia Center in 2005 to see the AHL Phantoms win the Calder Cup – 20,000+ tickets! They were still selling out the building at the end of the dreadful run in 2006-2007 when the Flyers had their worst season in history. So to say that the Flyers were able to sell out 96% capacity on the same day as a World Series game, and use it as a comparison point for the Coyotes, is silly. The game let out well before the Phillies game started and I’ll bet that some of those fans left the Wachovia Center, made a quick pitstop in the parking lot to change from their orange & black to their red pinstripes, crossed the street and went to watch the game at Citizen’s Bank Park (convenience of having the two stadiums across the street from each other).
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Moridin417 on Nov 4, 2009 1:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Philly also has a 30-year head start in its market, two championships, and a tradition of mostly-competent hockey and management on its side.
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by Doogie2K on Nov 4, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously…the point I was trying (poorly) to make is that the Philadelphia sports fan is nothing like the Arizona sports fan…there just is not the interest/attachment to the teams here that the people have in Philly.
With limited exceptions for each team in Phoenix, the general populous cheers for the team (and shows up at the park) if the team is doing well late in the season…otherwise, they don’t bother. Add to that the fact that there is almost no local coverage for the Coyotes whatsoever, and it’s tough to get butts in the seats…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Moridin417 on Nov 4, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I see, you were talking about the Phoenix sports culture in general. Gotcha.
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by Doogie2K on Nov 5, 2009 8:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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