Islanders deserve revenue sharing, Tavares

Two different writers on the same day. One who wants to give to the woebegone New York Islanders, hockey's worst team, and one who wants to take away.
Here's Larry Brooks with a good piece on the team being ineligible for revenue sharing:
If the NHL is serious about maintaining a 30-team league, and if the league is serious about capping the number of teams in Canada at six, then this is a clause that must be stricken from the CBA. NHLPA executive director Paul Kelly sure believes it's time.
"I believe the television-market clause discriminates unfairly against teams like the Islanders and Ducks," Kelly told Slap Shots last weekend in Montreal. "The union would certainly support eliminating that clause. It doesn't make sense if we're committed to helping clubs in distress."
Seven of the 24 American franchises are ineligible for revenue sharing, everyone from the Rangers to the Blackhawks to the Flyers. Three of those teams — the Isles, Devils and Kings — are in the bottom 10 in attendance this season and are in some cases as deserving as Phoenix, Atlanta and Florida of those extra dollars.
Is it honestly easier to make a buck in Newark, Uniondale and Orange County than huge markets like Dallas, Boston, Detroit and St. Paul, all of which are eligible for revenue sharing? If anything, the Devils, Isles and Ducks have more competition for hockey dollars in their markets given the more established Rangers and Kings are nearby.
The Isles are in about as bad a spot as you can be right now, with quite likely the worst rink in hockey, and need all the help they can get. Getting the first overall pick seems likely, pending the lottery, but some would even deny them that right.
Here's the Toronto Sun's Steve Simmons:
If you think about it, why would anyone with dreams and aspirations of greatness want to play for the Isles?
They have become a Gertrude Stein kind of franchise: "There is no there there." From the owner to the front office to the players to an old rink and older fan base, there is nothing about the Islanders that represents hope.
And, if nothing else, that is what Tavares can best represent for an NHL team come June. If I were him, I would rather have a say in my future rather than have it dictated by circumstance, or in this case, a lottery.
Honestly, you might as well contract the franchise (or extend that preseason visit to Kansas City by a few dozen years). If the team's fan base doesn't have a right to the No. 1 pick after all they've gone through — even only since the Milbury years — what point is there having a team there at all?
The Islanders have finally seen the light and are going the route the Penguins and Capitals — two teams that were very recently their own versions of the Gertrude Stein franchise — and are simply god awful this season. There wasn't a lot of there in Pittsburgh when Dick Tarnstrom led the team in scoring in 2003-04, but look at where they're now, with the two leading scorers in the league and a new (soon to be full) building going up across the street. The Capitals bottomed out that same season, having their worst campaign since the expansion years, and they watched as a third-last finish turned into Alex Ovechkin after the ping pong balls went their way.
Now they're a model franchise and a Stanley Cup contender — and good on Ted Leonsis for picking up a few revenue sharing cheques along the way.
There's an argument to be made that Pittsburgh and Washington are far better markets than what the Islanders have to work with, and if that's the route you want to go, you just might get a little of my support. But Charles Wang and company deserve a fighting chance, just like everyone else, and they're about as in need of a handout as anyone right now.
The last thing troubled markets need is a little dirt thrown on them while they're already going under. The NHL's stuck with 30 franchises, likely for good, and at the moment, plenty are struggling for far less reparable reasons than an outdated rink.
Aren't the Islanders worth saving?
UPDATE Lighthouse Hockey has more, including some tidbits about the Islanders' lucrative television contract. It's hard to imagine where they'd be without that.
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I’d rather have a say in my future than have it dictated, too – but why should that just be an argument for Tavares and the Islanders this year? Why shouldn’t it apply to a number five draft pick who goes to a team that is notorious for not developing players well, and so he knows his career will not be looked after properly? Or a team that chooses tenth, but he doesn’t like the coaching staff and hates the city? If you are going to make that argument, then follow it through to its logical conclusion and abolish the draft entirely, letting all young players have a say in which team and organization would be the right fit for them – same as other professions.
Otherwise, how are the Islanders supposed to get better if not for drafting young talent? They can’t buy their way out of putridity – the only way available is to build from the draft. If that is not to be permitted, then just contract the team now and spare their fans any more pain.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Feb 2, 2009 6:22 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Tsk, tsk, Baroque
You’re applying logic and good sense to a Steve Simmons argument. You’re never going to get anywhere doing that. ;)
by Doogie2K on Feb 2, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoopsie. My bad. :)
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Feb 2, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
John Tavares and the London Knights played in Ottawa yesterday and one of the Islander scouts was in attendance surveying the goods. I had a chance to chat with him during the WJHC and teased him that Ottawa was going to have a good shot at Tavares too. He replied that Ottawa didn’t need a player like John. I also had a chance to mention John’s prospects in Ottawa to John’s dad and his eyes glazed over.
I think they want to go to Toronto.
As for having a choice, players are pretty much chattel from the time they are drafted until (if) they get good enough to negotiate an NTC/NMC in their contracts. That’s just how it goes. If you give the draftees the right to choose where they land, you might as well give it to all the guys. That would pretty much clog it up.
Whether the team that places DFL “deserves” the first pick, well, there’ s a reason that there is a lottery.
by hockeycountry on Feb 2, 2009 7:10 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I say no, but not for the reason listed...
I totally agree that the Islanders should be eligible for revenue sharing based on their market size. The spirit of the revenue sharing is to help the playing field be more level and let the teams be more competitive. In order to do that, all teams need to be elidgible.
The one OTHER requirement not being mentioned, that i also feel is a fair requirement (but one that i am acutely aware of thanks to living in Nashville) is the attendance requirement. The Islanders make the Predators look like the Leafs when it comes to ticket sales (ok, maybe not quite…but still). Even if the market size restriction was limited (and i think it should be) the Islanders haven’t hit the attendance mark to qualify for revenue sharing in…years? A decade? This year’s paid and unpaid attendance combined is averaging 13,665. This year’s threshold is 14,000 paid attendance.
(For the record, and i just have to throw this out as a Preds fan- Nashville has yet to miss the attendance requirements, and probably won’t miss it this year – and no, the ownership isn’t going to have to buy tickets)
But back to the story: The market size restriction does seem unfair and needs to go. Totally agreed. Even if that means less cash for the Predators
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by pwnicholson on Feb 2, 2009 8:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
just to clarify, the attendance requirement (as well as the second requirement to maintain revenue growth at or in excess of the league wide rate) is not a requirement for revenue sharing. It is a requirement for FULL revenue sharing. You still get a share if you do not achieve the prescribed standards – just progressively lower percentages.
by Gerald on Feb 2, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
True, and good to distinguish.
Forechecker just did a GREAT indepth post about this issue, more more than is covered here.
Check it out – http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/otf/comments/is_new_york_a_small_market/
Blog- http://paulnich.blogspot.com
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by pwnicholson on Feb 2, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think the Islanders should get revenue sharing. I dont think its wildly accurate to look at average attendance to judge a team because buildings vary in size and some seat 2,000 to 3,000 more people than others. The percent to capacity is a much better indicator of how a team is doing in this regard. This distinction is important as there are 5 teams that play below 85% capacity (Islanders, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, and Atlanta… Phoenix sits right at 85). The Devils who you say are at a disadvantage are turning a profit with a small arena (17,625) that is filled about 88 capacity on average. They have seen an uptick in revenue since the lockout and there was a recent post on this site about most of that was due to last season, when they moved to the Prudential Center. They are on track to turn a profit again this year and while still not selling out every game have gone from 80% capacity in the Meadowlands to almost 90% in Newark. Partially based on this Id say the Islanders need a new arena, not revenue sharing.
In terms of the restriction, Im not in agreement with it but it is currently in the CBA and teams need to deal with it. Other teams in similar situations are making it work, so its not impossible for the Islanders to turn a profit.
by drhgzang on Feb 2, 2009 8:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
88% * 17,625 = 15,510, yes, but the Devils still have to compete for hearts and minds with every other team in southern New York and northern Pennsylvania, in every other sport, and that’s a lot of damned teams.
As for 85% vs. 14,000, the Islanders play to the smallest capacity in the NHL (16,234), and 85% capacity would be 13,799. For everyone else, 14,000 is greater than 85% capacity, so I don’t think it’s a terribly unreasonable expectation; if the Islanders have 200 more people than 85%, are they really in that much better shape than they are playing 134 people below it? Do 334 people per game per year make enough of a difference that the Islanders aren’t still monumentally screwed? I say no: based on last year’s average ticket price of $50.43:
334 seats/game * 41 games/year * $50.43/seat = $690,588.42/year
Even assuming everyone buys a $7.25 beer or some equivalent, that’s still not much. (For the record, a beer apiece brings it to $789,869.92. That’s enough HRR to get you one $450K replacement-level NHLer at a 57% cap, and buy him a five-star steak dinner with the leftovers.)
by Doogie2K on Feb 2, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Isles do not get concession revenue
Doogie,
Nix the beer formula as the Islanders lose out on about a third of ticket revenue, all concessions and parking.
You can thank the previous owners for that little gem.
by Islesblogger on Feb 2, 2009 8:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, the concession revenue is highly misunderstood among NHL fans in general. With the few exceptions of teams owned by a concessionaire (Jacobs, Wirtz), teams do not get that revenue.
They sell the concession rights to a third party who pays them a percentage of sales against a minimum rent.
by Gerald on Feb 2, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For the health of the team (though perhaps not for their chances of remaining in Uniondale), perhaps the best thing Tavares could do for the Islanders is refuse to play for them. As I recall, that worked out pretty well for the Quebec Nordiques/Colorado Avalanche when Lindros made his stand. That said, I’m not sure I want Snow at the wheel for that transaction.
http://puckreport.blogspot.com
MG
by puckreport on Feb 2, 2009 9:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The only team crazy enough about Tavares to put together a package worthy enough is Toronto.
And I don’t think a) they have the horses to do it, and b) Burke makes that move anyway.
by Afino on Feb 2, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Given the state of the club and the psyche of the fanbase, the worst thing for the Islanders would be to have the chance to draft Tavares only to trade him. If he performs as billed, that’s just the kind of flash and draw they need — and it may even help fuel the public/political support needed to push the arena through.
One could argue that a cornerstone defenseman (Hedman?) is more important to a team’s long-term championship hopes, but the Islanders need an infusion now.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Ironic that a writer from Toronto (a team that hasn’t won anything since the late 60’s and one that has its share of nutty owners, etc) mocking the Islanders. People in glass houses…..
2) That said the isles should NOT get revenue sharing. They need to have a new arena. Period! From the sounds of things Wang is doing all the right things to get one, but local politicians are not cooperating.
3) All in all LI is a good hockey area, with a decent team/arena it will be filled. In the meantime can we dispense with the silly attacks?
by Fauxrumors on Feb 2, 2009 9:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ironic that a writer from Toronto (a team that hasn’t won anything since the late 60’s and one that has its share of nutty owners, etc) mocking the Islanders.
You can mock the team for not winning but at least there are more fans than empty seats in the crowd at Leafs games.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Feb 2, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) PPP- Didn’t want it to sound like we were disparaging Leaf fans. We’ve found through the years that are some of the most knowledgeable/passionate/loyal in the league. (Perhaps if they weren’t so loyal ownership might be more apt to try to improve things?) ; )
by Fauxrumors on Feb 2, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps if they weren’t so loyal ownership might be more apt to try to improve things?) ; )
Sadly, that wouldn’t work :(
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Feb 3, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All depends on what league you want
The concerns about the Islanders’ attendance are warranted. But I wonder whether the Islanders might have made similar ticket pushes to reach the 14,000 threshold if a piece of revenue sharing were at stake? It’s so hard to quantify what the last 15+ years have done to their ability to draw fans, and there are a lot issues beyond on the ice (e.g. just getting to Nassau Coliseum for a weeknight game).
But both revenue sharing and the silly “Tavares should hold out” bit come down to what kind of NHL one wants to see. If it’s OK for draftees to hold out to go to Toronto, then might as well just get rid of the draft and contract half the league. The draft has always struck me as the most important, most interesting (for fans), and most disciplining (still requires smart scouting and development) method to encourage some parity and proper rebuilding in the league. It seems to have helped Pit and D.C. recently. In that context the league is a single entity, so: Want to make millions and be an NHL star? First, play by the most important rule that keeps the league healthy. That’s the deal.
As for revenue sharing, if NHL owners (who are rarely a truly single interest) believe in their product’s chance for success in existing markets in Uniondale, Atlanta, Nashville etc. — it makes sense to do whatever is necessary to help those clubs until they are are on solid footing. If one believes the Islanders in their market can work, then consideration should be made for the decades-long struggle they’ve had securing a new building, as well as the miserable ownership changes they had that also set them back before Wang. Likewise the crazy ownership mess in Atlanta, which seems to hold that franchise back (and keep the GM in his job) right as it was emerging from expansion pain.
I’d obviously love for the Isles to get revenue sharing to soften Wang’s yearly losses, but if the new building doesn’t get done …
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 9:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If it’s OK for draftees to hold out to go to Toronto, then might as well just get rid of the draft and contract half the league.
I appreciate you looking out for the Leafs’ chances of winning a Stanley Cup.
Tavares should definitely not hold out. I hate those moves by punks that have not proven anything.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Feb 2, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So they haven't been trying?
“But I wonder whether the Islanders might have made similar ticket pushes to reach the 14,000 threshold if a piece of revenue sharing were at stake?”
If they haven’t been trying just because they are missing out on revenue sharing, then something is really wrong. Do you really think they haven’t been trying to get as many fans involved and to games as possible? If not, they don’t deserve the franchise.
I think they have been, and just have a lot of issues that need to be worked through – not the least of which is a new arena.
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by pwnicholson on Feb 2, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But pinning everything on a new arena – even before the economy tanked, there was beginning to be a backlash against spending public dollars to build sports facilities, especially when the price of tickets, PSLs, etc. just kept going up – and often cities would bend over backwards to benefit the sports team at the expense of the people who lived in the community. You don’t need to look any further than what is going on with the Yankees’ new ballpark to see that.
If everything is based on getting funding for a new arena, what happens if the money never materializes? What happens if even Tavares isn’t enough to get the area to pay into it (as it took Pittsburgh Crosby and Malkin and Fleury and Staal and a hard sell regardign moving the team from Lemieux, if I remember correctly – and that is a LOT of pressure).
I understand there is a whole development planned around the arena, as witht he Coyotes, but that doesn’t mean that the area is any more likely to chip in for the cost, maybe.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Feb 2, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not a push for public funding (that’s an insignificant part of the plan), it’s a political approval/land-use issue with Nassau County (which approved) and Town of Hempstead (which is still pending environmental review). Wang and a real estate partner have made this part of a much larger real estate project for the land surrounding the Coliseum.
In short, this is not your average “buy us a stadium” plea to taxpayers.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, thanks for the clarification. You’re right, most of the time it IS “even though we are rich, we’d rather spend the public’s money.” This is a different issue.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Feb 2, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No problem — it’s hard to get a handle on their plan without going into a lot of details.
As for the economy and what effect that might have on Wang and partners’ finances to go through with it … I’m almost afraid to ask. I sometimes wonder if that’s why Wang has recently implicitly altered his longheld position not to even acknowledge the “or else we’ll move” hammer.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The interesting thing is that the economy is bad all over. For any team to have an effective “or else we’ll move” hammer, there has to be a better option to move to. If it were just New York suffering, then they could plausibly threaten to move to another state – but when everyone is in the same sinking boat, changing chairs doesn’t help.
Does anyone know why the environmental review is taking so long – I’m hugely in favor of plenty of protection for sensitive areas, but I can’t imagine there are many places that haven’t already been tromped on my human impact pretty well.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Feb 2, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they haven’t been trying just because they are missing out on revenue sharing, then something is really wrong. Do you really think they haven’t been trying to get as many fans involved and to games as possible? If not, they don’t deserve the franchise.
I understand this reaction, but “not trying” is not my point. There is a point where you do not want to devalue your product just to get butts in the seats, particularly when you’ve proven you can sell out when the club is good or has a good rival in town. The Thrashers blogger The Falconer has gone into this regarding the Thrashers discounting their seats.
The Isles have indeed been doing a lot of marketing initiatives, offering a lot of creative multi-game packages, to get people to more games. But as long as there is no revenue sharing incentive to get to 14,000, they have no reason to slash prices (and thus revenues) just to “try” get to that arbitrary number, especially when it would devalue the price of going to a game and send the message to season-ticket holders, “don’t buy, because we’re just going to slash prices anyway.”
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Slashing prices (and thus revenues) does not get you to revenue sharing. You must reach the attendance threshold AND be growing your revenue at > league-wide rate. The second threashold is to prevent just that type of tactic.
by Gerald on Feb 2, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that’s how it works. My point is that without a chance at revenue sharing, 14,000 is a meaningless number for them.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is obvious that New York can not support two hockey teams. The Islanders would be a much better cannidate for relocation than the Predators…
by Ebscer on Feb 2, 2009 11:11 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t agree. They supported two teams just fine when the Islanders weren’t terrible. It seems more sensible to draw the conclusion that New York won’t support a bad hockey team, than that New York, with its eight-figure population, somehow can’t support two professional hockey teams.
by Doogie2K on Feb 2, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) New York has the population and number of fans to support two teams. (They actually have three as the devils by and large are a NY metro team)
2) The problem(s) on the Island have been long and numerous, but the past shows that the folks will pay to see quality and even pack the old barn when there is a product worth paying for. That said, VMC needs to go, and soon! Even if they sold out all their games they still don’t make nearly the same income that other teams do with state of the art buildings/a good lease, etc.
Build a new arena and the team in Uniondale will prosper again!!
by Fauxrumors on Feb 2, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No. The Islanders should not be eligible for revenue sharing, at least not as the system is currently structured. If they are, then incentives are completely out of whack.
I’m in favor of significant revenue sharing, but I’m opposed to it in the form that every league has set it up. As is, it subsidizes incompetence.
The pay in for revenue sharing should be based on one thing only: the revenue potential of the market. It absolutely should not be based upon how much revenue is actually generated. If you could generate a lot of revenue, but don’t, that’s a sign of a poorly run organization. The league needs to force bad ownership out, not prop it up. The fact that you can’t take advantage of the revenue potential should not only not entitle you to receive pay outs, it shouldn’t relieve the responsibility of paying in. You want a big market team, generate revenues like a big market team.
The pay out for revenue sharing should be based upon only one thing: winning percentage. Reward owners for putting together good teams. That’s what their incentive should be. I can see doing it on a multi-year rolling average of winning percentage, in order to smooth out revenues over the success cycle. It needs to be about winning.
Yes, that means that large market teams are going to collect revenue sharing checks. Deal with that by escalating the pay in structure. It’s possible to ensure that they are net payers even with this payout structure.
The key is marginal revenue per win. The reason big market teams want to pay a lot of money for players isn’t quite that it’s just a large market. It’s that, because it’s a large market, every win is more valuable to them. Attendance, and TV audience, go up for every team that wins. For a big market team, each bit of increase is a larger set of fans, and greater advertising revenue.
The point of a revenue sharing system should be to even this out. If you collect money from teams that should be generating a lot of revenue, and pay it to teams that win, you can make this a much flatter curve. Pay Edmonton to win from the league’s central revenues, and you can come closer to making each win worth as much as it is for the Rangers. You’ll never catch them up completely, but close.
Along those lines, you’ll never convince me that a team in the New York City metro area doesn’t have a lot of revenue potential that the Islanders have managed to avoid collecting. Yes, there are a lot of teams, but there are even more people. Per capita, New York is underserved relative to other markets, not the other way around.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 12:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know the area that well, but I get the feeling that where they are in New York is part of the issue. Ditto for the team in Newark.
Maybe NYC is underserved, but how many people from there are heading out to Islanders and Devils games?
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Can’t speak for the NJ situation as they have had a great product/on-ice success/stable management/2 new arenas in the time the isles have had one, yet they still struggle at the gate.
2) Meanwhile when the Isles put a good product on the ice they have had near capacity attendance. Problem is their lease/the antiquated building, etc. As well as years of neglect/mismanagement at the top levels of the team have eroded fan loyalty
3) Being very familiar with the area there is no doubt that the Islanders would/will have strong support once the issue listed above are rectified
by Fauxrumors on Feb 2, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Teams with building issues deserve revenue sharing though. Teams with incredible managerial incompetence don’t.
How long do you punish the Isles for the Milbury years though? Until they’re gone?
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do teams with building issues deserve revenue sharing? Why isn’t the fact that the Islanders haven’t solved their building issues, despite knowing about them for a couple of decades, evidence of incredible managerial incompetence?
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can make that case for a ton of teams though. What about the Phoenix rink being in Glendale? That hurts them significantly. Ditto for the Panthers playing way over in Sunrise.
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I do blame ownership for having a terrible location. I say that about a department store, and I don’t see any reason not to say it about a sports team.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, but my argument is that, under the current system, the Isles are as deserving as Florida and Phoenix and Atlanta of those revenue sharing dollars.
Revamping the entire revenue sharing system is whole new ballgame. I’m sure there are ways to improve it, but what do you do? Reward teams with low attendance and a lot of wins?
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Islanders have a significantly larger market to try to exploit than any of the other teams.
My system would reward teams that win games, and properly exploit their market. A team with low attendance won’t be rewarded, because that means that they aren’t generating their revenue. If they are a large market, they’ll be paying into the system. If they’re a small market, their local revenues will be low, and revenue sharing won’t make up for that.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It probably wasn’t a terrible arena 37 years ago. The fact that they haven’t replaced it yet is due to politics, not ownership will. You should know that if you’ve been paying attention.
by Doogie2K on Feb 2, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it is not just due to politics, unless you define wanting to get something from the political system “just politics.”. There is no question that, had the owners of the Islanders decide to just buy some land and build an arena, it would have gotten done. A decade ago, the owners were holding out for state subsidies, which they didn’t get. Now, building the arena is being made contingent upon being allowed to build a lot of other stuff. These are business decisions that the various owners have made.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Disclaimer: We are NOT Islander/Wang fans! That said, from reading reports the past few years The islander organization has done about everything short of threats(until last month) to get a new arena deal done.
2) Wang has lost millions and until last month the team hasn’t said anything about the slow as molasses process. In the time they have been owned by Wang the Yankees, Mets, Giants, jets, Devils all have had new facilities built/are under construction.
by Fauxrumors on Feb 2, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, the Islanders have not done everything possible, short of threats, to build an arena. They could just buy a piece of land, and build one.
Currently, the project is hung up because Wang won’t start construction on the arena until Hempstead allows him to develop about 95 additional. A decade ago, ownership was trying to squeeze more revenue out of the state.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Yes, Wang could have done that, but his plan to create a large productive area of real estate is not new. Its been the only reason he would be willing to absorb the losses he currently is sustaining.
2) From what we’ve read the Isles won’t be getting huge sums of tax payer dollars. From an economic perspective it seems it would generate quite a bit of tax income for the state/county.
3) The hold up is that some of the local officials have been heavily lobbied(paid off) by other retail/malls in the area. They are afraid the complex will take away business from them so they want the plan killed.
by Fauxrumors on Feb 2, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Islanders location
Going to the Coliseum from NYC is far worse than going to Kanata from Ottawa. The Islanders serve suburban Long Island with traffic congestion that makes it nearly impossible to serve the entire NY metro area. Lack of infrastructure to get people out to the parking lot by mass transit really hurts. No way to make it to game time if you are travelling from four out of five boroughs during the week. Long Island is NOT Manhattan and the Town of Hempstead intends to keep it that way even if it means slowly killing the Islanders until the leas at the Coliseum is up.
by Hockey1919 on Feb 2, 2009 12:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, the Coliseum’s location is horrible. The fact that I have to go through Staten Island via car as a quicker way to see my Sabs play the Isles later this month is ridiculous. One of the best things about the Newark arena is the access to Jersey Transit from the arena. MSG is right at Penn Station and the A/C/E line which makes it attractive as well. Getting around to something easily is a big factor in the Gotham area and the Isles aren’t doing themselves any favors where they currently are. I have no idea if the Lighthouse Project will be located on a mass transit line but if it is, that along could turn fortunes for the Isles.
The population of Pominville keeps rising!
by Blackcapricorn on Feb 2, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The location of Nassau Coliseum isn’t new. The building didn’t just move there. If it’s such a problem, ownership should have worked to fix it, by building a new arena in a place that works better.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is ridiculous
Since when did the NHL become the US government? Why should the league bail out a company that has been incompetently ran by greedy fools? Why is there a pity party for the Islanders? Where is this coming from?
It is no one else’s fault that the island is a terrible place to play. The organization was misran for years, both in the front office and on the ice. That is what makes it such a terrible place to play. On the ice, if Milbury hadn’t traded away Jokinen, Luongo, et. al. perhaps there would have been a better team, and thus a more desirable team to play with for free agents and draft picks alike. Detroit as a city has more crime and is failing economically but players are still clamoring to play there.
Yeah, off the ice woa is me! If Charles Wang wanted just a new arena, the town of Hempstead has already said they would have given it to him. But no, Wang is greedy and wants the two billion dollar Lighthouse Project so he can make money off of a strip mall and other distractions. Boo hoo. If he made his hockey team more interesting to watch, he could get people to pay to show up and wouldn’t need the extra change from five dollar footlongs.
Fighting the clause in the CBA to get the Isles a cut of revenue sharing is ridiculous. There are over 2.5 million-plus households in the area and this team doesn’t deserve money because they aren’t smart enough to get 16,000 of them to drive to Uniondale. Does it hurt that there is no public transportation to Fort Neverwin? Sure. But considering that everyone on Long Island drives and deals with the traffic on a daily basis to go to work, to go shopping, to go about their lives, using that argument is ridiculous. People just aren’t willing to deal with traffic to see a piss-poor franchise.
I have a blog too! www.scottyhockey.com
Let's Go Rangers!
by Scotty Hockey on Feb 2, 2009 2:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Atlanta and Phoenix are huge markets that have run their teams into the ground and receive a huge cut of revenue sharing. What’s the difference?
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Phoenix is not a huge market. Ranked by size, the Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale metropolitan area is the 16th largest in the NHL*. It’s not that big. Atlanta is 12th.
*I divided the NYC metro area by 3, and credited that figure to each team. Ditto LA, except I divided by 2.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Realistically speaking, is the Islanders market the size of Atlanta’s? Boston? Dallas? Their market isn’t downtown NYC; it seems irrelevant that they’re “close” to a big centre when the actual market is different.
If the Sharks, Stars, Bruins, Thrashers, etc., get those dollars, pretty much any struggling team should. What is the goal of revenue sharing anyway?
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why are the Islanders locked into Nassau County? I don’t know of anything that has prevented them from trying to get a building closer in. There are even two boroughs of the city itself on Long Island. They wouldn’t even need to “move” the team in the sense that it’s usually used.
They’ve known about their location for more than 30 years. If it’s a problem, they could have acted to fix it. They chose not to.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeap, and I think that’s fair. But that attitude likely is going to prove the death of the franchise.
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve said before that I think the fact that no team in one of the four major sports has undergone liquidation in a long time is a sign of decay, not health. In all industries, companies die. Either other companies pick up the slack, new companies form, or the disappearance is a sign of a lack of demand.
Instead of behaving like healthy industries, sports leagues carry dead weight and incompetent ownership. Forcing useless clowns out of the business is a good thing. Sometimes, that requires bankruptcy. I’d rather see the leagues put together a way to deal with bad franchises, including what to do in the case of Chapter 7, rather than pretend that it isn’t an important part of every industry model.
I’m a Detroit fan. For hockey, that’s a good thing. For football, not so much. That the league is structured in a way that doesn’t force William Clay Ford to pack it in is a disgrace. The only way that the Lions will ever get competent ownership is if the revenue model is changed such that the team loses large amounts of money. Ditto the Islanders. Setting up the model so that incompetents aren’t crushed is the problem.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They’ve known about their location for more than 30 years. If it’s a problem, they could have acted to fix it. They chose not to.
I see what you’re saying, but the “they” in this equation is a string of different incompetent-to-fraudulent owners over two decades that the league was complicit in allowing to control the franchise. Should the league punish the existing owner — the first one actually committing his pocketbook to the club’s survival — for the mistakes it allowed to happen?
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Given that previous ownership was incompetent and created long term problems, the current ownership should have been able to buy the team at a hefty discount. If they didn’t, they aren’t very good at assessing the value of what they buy. If they did, they already have the money due them for previous problems.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Charles Wang wanted just a new arena, the town of Hempstead has already said they would have given it to him.
To clarify: The ToH supervisor said they would allow (i.e. not "give") Wang to build/renovate without the rest of the project, and it was a disingenuous offer that wasn’t actually hers to make.
This has nothing to do with the U.S. government or bailouts or mistakes under previous owners or who “deserves” what. Ultimately, it’s about whether the league wants to keep its existing 30 franchises where they are, and how to achieve that. To that end, regardless of his on-ice lessons, Wang has certainly paid his dues in losses.
Now, want to contract or move the Isles? Say their location can’t work? That’s one thing. But under the current system and desire to keep the 30 where they are, it makes sense to consider applying revenue sharing (which has its own progress conditions, remember) to these targets rather than punish them for past events.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When do we decide that enough time has passed on bad business decisions that we should no longer consider them when giving out revenue sharing?
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a great question — I’ve got no answer. But I’d think the league would want to taste what this market is like with a new building before cutting the cord.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure. I’d bet, though, that no one is going to cut the cord on a New York team. Not only could they draw a lot more fans, they have the TV contract James mentioned in the update. My hunch is that, long before either relocation (beyond, say, Queens) or contraction, someone else would buy the team. If it’s really reached the point that a team can’t be successful on Long Island without a giant mall attached to it, the NHL has larger problems than whether or not to provide the Islanders with revenue sharing.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JMN’s right in a lot of ways, but the NHL’s problem is that there are seven or eight bad markets and giving revenue sharing to only some of them seems unjust.
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with the idea that it’s unjust. Some markets are bad because they are inherently weaker than others. Some markets are just “bad,” because they aren’t being exploited efficiently. I think treating these the same is what would be unjust.
The NHL needs to make a decision. It’s implied that it has, but I’m not sure that enough thought has gone into it. The question is: do they want to support having teams in markets that aren’t strong enough to carry a team by themselves. I have a personal opinion on that, but it isn’t relevant to the question. If the league does want to do that, fine. If so, it needs to address the problem explicitly, not try to get cute.
There is a follow up question: what constitutes a bad market that needs to be supported? As I said, some are inherently weak, and others are an ownership problem. Columbus is an example of the former. New York is an example of the latter. I’m simply not buying the proposition (which you aren’t pushing, James, but some others are) that a team in the New York metropolitan area could ever be considered to have an inherently weak market, though the financial industry is trying its best to prove me wrong.
One interesting wrinkle is to what extent should the intensity of general hockey interest somewhere factor in to how inherently strong a market is. Do we think of Edmonton as an inherently weak market that has been brilliantly exploited, or do we think of it as a medium sized market? I’m inclined to the former view, but I can see arguments in the other direction. I think the latter position leads to some very unstable arguments, and opens up an insoluble can of worms in trying to separate them. My position is that the inherent strength of a market should be measured by a combination of population and per capita disposable income.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said, some are inherently weak, and others are an ownership problem.
I guess I have more trouble putting every market situation into black-or-white categories, especially if the only factors considered is population and wealth. Is the fact that a random Anaheim resident is less likely to follow the Ducks than a random Vancouver resident would follow the Canucks a failure of ownership, or a feature of the market itself? I think there are differences that go beyond census statistics.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
by Earl Sleek on Feb 2, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said, I can see the arguments. The problem, when creating a revenue sharing formula, is that there’s absolutely no way to account for it. In addition to the problem of setting this value, it isn’t really fixed.
One of the goals of ownership should be to increase the fan base. If doing so reduces the received revenue sharing, it also reduces the incentive to market well. While it’s inherently unfair, I think it’s unwise to include this factor.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem, when creating a revenue sharing formula, is that there’s absolutely no way to account for it.
Isn’t it just an inclusion/exclusion exercise? I haven’t thought it through terribly well, but there’s got to be some measures like TV ratings that could help identify the initial strength of the hockey market.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
by Earl Sleek on Feb 2, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think this works. Among other things, teams do marketing before the first game is played, which is going to impact even the initial numbers. Going this route, you’re encouraging new teams to avoid doing any marketing before whatever first set of numbers you’re looking at, because that will improve their revenue sharing formula for the future.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I didn’t mean take a sampling every year — they can look at historic numbers to get a strength of market indicator — looking retroactively shouldn’t impact future marketing decisions.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
by Earl Sleek on Feb 3, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not my money
and I don’t care how the owners divide up their pie. From my perspective, I want a competitive league. If some teams are in trouble, they should get some help from the others so that they can stay competitive.
At least, in the short term. In the long term, if there is a persistent problem, whether due to incompetence or geography, then either changes need to be made or the team will have to be sold or moved. Cutting off revenue sharing would spur that kind of action.
But right now, the Islanders are in tough times and they’ve never benefited from revenue sharing before. I see no reason to treat them differently from any other team.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Feb 2, 2009 2:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
That’s exactly how I feel as a fan. Relocation has never pleased me, often just moves a problem around, and should be the last resort. Before that, I’d like to see the league first do what it can to give a struggling market a boost. Full stop.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just up and Leave
The Islanders lease will not allow them to just up leave for the foreeable future and so the idea of relocating isn’t really an option either. However, the terms of the lease should prevent them from being profitable. Whomever signed that lease should be shot and the NHL that “vetted” the string of criminals that have owned the team should be held accountable as well. These weren’t just inept owners they were people that were actually sent to prison and the NHL approved them. The point is, the arena was built in the current location almost 40 years ago and has not been updgrade since. So the location hasn’t changed but the living conditions have certainly deteriorated under numerous slum lords.
by Hockey1919 on Feb 2, 2009 4:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree. The problem is that incompetent ownership was supported, and not ruthlessly run out of business. Continuing to support incompetent ownership isn’t a solution to the problem. If Wang isn’t incompetent, then all of these previous problems were addressed when he purchased the team, and he got it cheap.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 5:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But for better or worse, that’s not how closed sports leagues work. They don’t like to drive their own teams out of business or into merger and acquisitions. I think your suggestion earlier is ideal:
I’d rather see the leagues put together a way to deal with bad franchises, including what to do in the case of Chapter 7, rather than pretend that it isn’t an important part of every industry model.
…but that just seems like something the league won’t ever touch, with its varied strata of owners who come into this with wildly different interests, different time horizons for ROI, and different buy-in points (unless several clubs falter on collapse?). MLS’s single-entity foundation looks lovelier each day.
Lighthouse Hockey: an SB Nation New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
by Dominik on Feb 2, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, the sports leagues don’t let teams go bankrupt. My argument is that they’d be a lot better off if they did. On balance, I think the fans would be, too, since they wouldn’t be stuck with incompetent ownership for such long times.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 10:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JMN, you really need to lose this misguided notion comparing the NHL to other businesses. It is not a situation of competitors running each other out of business.
The NHL is a group of individual businesses operating as a joint venture. Are you familiar with the joint venture concept? I would assume that you are, but your comments betray a profound lack of appreciation of the concept.
by Gerald on Feb 2, 2009 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I am familiar with the joint venture concept, but thank you for the condescension. However, that also isn’t a very good model for sports leagues. Each team is an independently run business. If the other teams don’t have some operational control, they really aren’t joint ventures.
Further, even if that was a good model, the plug gets pulled on joint ventures all the time. They are every bit as prone to bankruptcy as independent businesses.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 2, 2009 10:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With the greatest respect, no condescension was intended. If you felt some, that is your issue, not mine.
Each team is not an independently run business. They are run according to a number of fundamental rules established by the joint venture, the first and foremost of which is the CBA that the supposedly independent businesses negotiated jointly with the NHLPA. There are hundreds of rules and regulations therein which proscribe in excruciating detail how these supposedly independently run businesses operate their business.
That is to say nothing of the myriad rules and regulations set forth in the league constitution and by-laws, as well as the numerous other adhoc agreements that the league members most assuredly have on a variety of individual issues (such as marketing, to take but one example). These requirements touch upon virtually every fundamental aspect of how these “independently run” businesses operate said business.
The joint venture model (with consortium elements as well) that the NHL and every other sports league has used since the beginning of time is the only model that fits the product that the teams make, in both legal and operational terms, for many, many reasons.
I suppose you would prefer that each team negotiate their own CBA? Or that there be no CBA whatsoever? That there be no joint marketing? No predefined and regulated schedule of games? No consistently organized playoffs? No … jeez, this is frankly such basic stuff that I can’t see any point in going on. Without a JV/consortium organization, nothing that you know (and presumably enjoy) of the league would remain the same.
by Gerald on Feb 3, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, Gerald, you clearly have no idea what I want, and are just coming up with whatever ridiculous stuff you can without giving any thought to how it fits into my stated positions. Please explain how I have ever said that they shouldn’t have a schedule or a collective bargaining agreement. I never said that the league isn’t a joint venture, just that the individual teams are not.
You also haven’t said a thing that actually addresses my point that poorly run teams need to be forced to change ownership, or that things wouldn’t be healthier if money losing operations were allowed to go bankrupt.
by J. Michael Neal on Feb 3, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good grief. You seem to be having trouble following the thread here.
I didn’t question whether you believed the league was a JV/consortium or not. I was addressing your suggestion that it “isn’t a very good model for sports leagues”, which is preposterous. In suggesting that the JV/consortium hybrid model is not a very good model, I have clarified to you that all of the things that are required for a functioning sports league flow from the JV/consortium business model and are not possible in any other model (other than a league with all the teams owned by a single owner, but that is another kettle of fish).
I was also addressing your suggestion that the teams are “independently run businesses”. While they do have some autonomy, they are severely restricted. I would hardly consider a business that has to conform to so many rules set out in the JV/consortium agreement to be “autonomous” by any reasonable definition, but you apparently feel otherwise.
Regarding your last point, JMN, if you don’t understand the financial impact of failing franchises on a league, I am frankly speechless. I am not talking about franchise values either, but rather operational long term impacts on one’s customer base.
As a final point, I would suggest that you need to rethink your proposition that, just because teams are doing poorly financially or on the ice, they are “poorly run”. In the real world of business, it is not nearly that simple. In sports, anyone who has ever participated in any meaningful way in sports knows that losing does not mean that you played poorly. I know the media like to report it that way, because it moves papers or attracts viewers, but it fools no one who has ever played any competitive game.
by Gerald on Feb 3, 2009 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Depression...
….will take several teams out behind the bard and put bullets in their heads.
The only mystery is how many teams will die.
by Dr Van Nostrum on Feb 2, 2009 8:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
/barn
though if Shakespeare were involved it would be something to see.
by Dr Van Nostrum on Feb 2, 2009 8:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Are you talking contraction? I highly doubt we ever see that in the NHL.
by James Mirtle on Feb 2, 2009 10:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Islanders/Tavares
For those of you not familiar with the area, the Isles draw almost nothing from NYC and other suburbs. It’s a Long Island-based franchise, basically Nassau and Suffolk, with a tiny bit of support in Queens and Brooklyn.
The Isles have the worst lease in hockey. They get no concessions, parking, signage, etc. They do get the luxury boxes (all 33 of them) — that was the deal a previous owner made.
The Coliseum was built on the cheap and nor maintained through most of the 1980s and 1990s. Current ownership has tried to overcome some of the building’s inadequacies and decay, but there’s only so much they can do.
However, this is not Nashville/Atlanta/Sunrise, etc. There is significant hockey history on Long Island (Simmons seems to ignore this completely). There is also a good-sized fan base that will turn out when there’s a product worth watching. They are starting to accumulate some good kids. Tavares (or Hedman) would speed up the process, as Crosby did it Pittsburgh.
They also have an enormous TV contract – I suspect that, not the 6 years left on their lease, will keep them from moving (though if I were Wang, I’d move further out on the Island — there is no other place to build in Nassau County). For the posters who think Wang should just buy some land and build — there’s nothing available in Nassau, and building anywhere out here is a hassle.
by JackMcK on Feb 3, 2009 3:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

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