Is Green the NHL's best defenceman?

I've actually been thinking about this one for a few days now:
James,
I've been a Caps fan my entire life, but all the talk about Mike Green's Norris candidacy makes me ill. Yeah, I know the trophy's no longer about play in one's own zone, but unless Green really does turn out to be the second coming of Paul Coffey, I'll chuckle every time I hear "Norris" and "Green" spoken in the same breath.
Can you honestly tell me that a GM wouldn't take a Scott Stevens or Zdeno Chara -- both of whom have zero Norris trophies on their resume -- over a guy like Green? He's a $5 million breakout machine and PP artist -- not a whole lot more.
Thoughts? Feelings?
Cheers,
Jack H.
tictactoehockey.blogspot.com
I love hockey fans that aren't afraid to talk about their own players' limits. This is a great question.
Green's defensive play to my eye has improved a ton this season, and Boudreau's got him out killing penalties regularly. The numbers say he's rarely on the ice for goals against despite logging big minutes, and he's a much more well-rounded player than someone like Dion Phaneuf (who received a ton of support for the Norirs last season). Green's also way, way in front in points per game for defencemen, and it's been incredibly rare for a blueliner to score a point a game in the last 15 years.
It's only happened once since 1995-96.
If Green finishes the season with stats like that, I think he will have a 50/50 or greater shot at winning the Norris. The voters will love those credentials (especially given his plus-minus is way up there), and he has the scoring lead among defenders despite missing 13 games.
I'd personally vote for Zdeno Chara, with serious consideration for Nick Lidstrom and Duncan Keith. But Green's put his name among the leaders, even for me.
I think the biggest reason the Norris has become a trophy so dedicated to offensive defencemen is the fact goals and assists are so easy to quantify — for everyone. If Green blows the competition out of the water in terms of points and doesn't win, there's sure to be plenty of outrage, even from non-Caps fans.
Defence-first defencemen will likely never have a hope of winning the thing again. We need a Rod Langway Award.
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If I had a vote I’d be voting for Chara. His play this year has been just unreal. To me he just does everything out there that I’d want a defenceman to do. Green will win a Norris at some point though if he continues to improve in his own end the way he has this season.
by ryanbatty on Feb 7, 2009 10:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree
he has improved this year in his own zone. He’ll never be a shutdown type D-man, but some of the moves he put’s on in his own zone……
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Feb 7, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Norris or Not
Green really makes the Caps go and they’re certainly a star NHL attraction right now.
He’s the perfect starter (and often finisher) for their game, and only time will tell if he has the temperment, intelligence and durabilty to become a great.
Is he a defensive stud? Not yet, but I’m willing to wait. He’s only been 23 for a couple of months.For now, of course he will be in the running — #4 changed the criteria for the Norris forever in the sixties and Green certainly has great credentials right now for a big part of today’s criteria: offence.
One of the lasting truths of hockey is that defencemen with rare exceptions need time (ice and years) to become Norris trophy winners.
I’ve been very impressed with Wideman’s year as well.
by Bob Roberts on Feb 7, 2009 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
It seems like the group of people who are the most vocal about Green NOT being a Norris trophy candidate … are Capitals fans.
Myself included.
I’ve watched him all season. It’s great to see him scoring at the same clip he was last season – it’s nice to know that last season wasn’t merely a fluke. But he still has a way to go defensively before he should be considered for the Norris.
Lidstrom is an excellent offensive defenseman, too, but he takes care of things on his own end of the ice as well. Mike Green isn’t up to that level yet. Hopefully soon, though!
I have as many wins in a Capitals uniform as Michael Belhumeur does.
by marky narc on Feb 7, 2009 12:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That is because Caps fans watch him the most and see his flaws more than other people that just see his stats. I think he takes too much heat from the Cap fan base but his defensive play is not Norris worthy yet. However, he has definitely improved in his own end and I have no doubt he will one day win a Norris and become very solid in his own end.
Re Wideman: he doesn’t have to play against the other team’s top lines. Chara does that. I don’t think you can win a Norris if a) you don’t play the other team’s top lines and b) you are not the best defenseman on your own team.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 7, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He didn’t win, but Phaneuf came second last season while being sheltered from playing against Calgary’s opponents’ best.
by Bosc Ulrich on Feb 7, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Wideman
“I’ve been very impressed with Wideman’s year as well.” Not “I think Wideman is a Norris trophy candidate.”
by Bob Roberts on Feb 7, 2009 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Kinda misleading in a thread about Norris candidates, no?
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 7, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Wideman (last time)
“I’ve been very impressed with Wideman’s year as well.”
As in “…in addition to the above comment.”
Not as in “…in conjunction with the above comment.”
I hope that’s clear enough now.
by Bob Roberts on Feb 7, 2009 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On a related note, why is there so much talk about Chara winning the Norris this year? His numbers are downright unimpressive compared to the rest of his team. In fact, Boston gives up more GA/60 when he’s on the ice than when he’s off it. Chara has a BehindTheNet rating of 0.1, but Savard, Krejci, Wheeler, and Ryder all have ratings of 1.5 or higher, and Boston’s goalies have save percentages hovering around .930. It seems pretty clear that Boston’s success this season has been driven by their forwards and their goalies. Chara’s an elite defenceman, no question, but it really doesn’t look like he’s been driving Boston’s success—especially when you compare the Bruins of this year to last year.
I hadn’t been following Green’s numbers, but they sure are impressive. Put me down for a ‘yes’ vote—he’s a top contender for the Norris.
by RyanV on Feb 7, 2009 12:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
1) Chara plays far more than the forwards you mention, and he plays a more defensive role
2) A lot of his best work is on special teams (mostly PK)
3) Chara was close to winning the Norris last season and that always gets you a lot of support going forward
4) His team’s been phenomenal with him playing 30 minutes a night
5) He’s on pace for 20 goals and a +40 rating, which only Lidstrom has come close to the last 10-12 years. Chara’d be the first defenceman to go 20-40 in 16 years, and as I said, he’s more of a defence-first player than Green
by James Mirtle on Feb 7, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Close to the Norris
I think it depends on your definition of close. Chara was third to Lidstrom in total voting, but Lidstrom earned something like 127/134 first place votes, so he was close in placing but nowhere close in voting.
Chara placed second in voting ’04.
by Bosc Ulrich on Feb 7, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Green for Norris
Offensive blue-liners of Green’s caliber are now so rare that they instantly become more valuable than an above average stay-at-home type. Heavy shot, minute munchers are nice and all, but a guy who can break the trap with his speed, make bullet passes tape-to-tape, join the rush as an extra attacker and drop the hammer from the point are rare as hen’s teeth.
If he can lead the league in points as a ppg puck rusher – give him the Norris.
by CamHilton on Feb 7, 2009 12:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Green is indeed "the real deal" and a legitimate Norris Canddidate
Mike Green’s TOI, stst, etc. all make him a legitimate Norris Trophy candidate. True he’s not a bruising, checking, stay at home defenseman. However, a lot of Norris winners haven’t been that. He’s a stud and he routinely takes on and bests the best opposing teams have to throw at the Caps. I’m not saying the Norris is his to loose, I’m saying he deserves fair considerations.
by markbona-capsfan99 on Feb 7, 2009 1:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Green is easily one of the most fun players to watch in the league. Awesome skater and hands.
While he may not have a Lidstrom or Chara-calibre defensive game, as you say James his defensive game is improving and getting more dependable while his offensive game speaks for itself.
by Bosc Ulrich on Feb 7, 2009 3:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Green is far from a Norris player
All the offensive production Green puts up doesn’t change the fact that he’s a less-than-stellar defensive player.
As a Wings fan, I obviously am a big fan of Lidstrom. He is just such a responsible and effective player on both ends of the ice, and this is something Green will not achieve.
This year, I like Lidstrom for the Norris. Taking my homer hat off, though, gives me Chara.
by Redwing19 on Feb 7, 2009 3:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don’t count Green out. He is only 23 and it is WAY too early to say he can’t achieve shut down status as a defenseman. Lidstrom was 31 when he won his first Norris. He was 29 when he got his first, and only, 20 goal season. Lidstrom is the modern gold standard for a defenseman but there is no way you can draw any conclusions about Green’s defensive ability right now. He can skate like Neidermayer and is a better goal scorer. The sky is the limit for this kid.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 7, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What you have to remember about Green
is that he plays in a very agressive system under Boudreau. He plays alot with good, slick defensively responsible forwards like Backstrom, Kozlov and Fedorov alot of the time so he can take chances. If he just stood at the top of the zone focusing on shutting down his winger then that’d be a waste of his talent.
I’ll give you this: Lidstrom still is the best in Hockey. For me, only Bobby Orr’s better all time.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Feb 8, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
Green’s ON+/- is #1 for ALL defencemen. And his GAON/60 is better than both Chara and Lidstrom. I’m not saying he’ll win the Norris, but to say he is “far from a Norris player” is just ignorant.
by wittcap79 on Feb 9, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The answer to the poll question has to be yes, he belongs in the conversation.
I still would rank a couple guys—like Chara and Duncan Keith (who’s having a great year) above Green for the Norris.
Green’s game in his own end might not be as solid, but as soon as he gets the puck he starts going; his style and puck possession make his game a lot different and more unique than a lot of defensemen in the game today. Not many people have
If the Norris was “most skilled” I’d think you have to give it to Green, but it goes to the defensemen (in definition at least) “the greatest all-around”. In that case I would vote Chara.
by Hooks Orpik on Feb 7, 2009 4:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You gotta knock the champ out to take the title...
…so you still gotta give it to Lidstrom. Until he stops dominating teams on both ends of the ice I don’t see how you give it to anyone else.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 7, 2009 4:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
As a Bruins fans, I gotta ask"
Have any of you (with respect) actually watched Chara “skate”?
He’s a pylon. Granted, a big, imposing, heavy-shooting pylon. But a pylon just the same.
He was routinely exposed in Ottawa by fleet-skating opponents. And there are times in Boston where he gets left at the altar while a speedy winger bears down on Tim Thomas.
If Chara is the league’s best defenceman, I’m Eric Duhatschek.
by Dr Van Nostrum on Feb 7, 2009 7:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Langway Trophy
I still like your idea of another NHL trophy, the Langway Trophy for the league’s best defensive defenseman (or is that defenceman?).
A Haven for the hockey malnourished. / http://www.onfrozenblog.com/
by Gustafsson on Feb 7, 2009 8:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
My only concern with the Langway Trophy is that it would be redundant. Do you penalize a great defensive player that also scores? How many times during Lidstrom’s reign would he qualify as the best “defensive defenseman” as well as “Best Defenseman”? I see what the purpose is I just don’t see how you can define the award so as to make it go to the Mike Komisarek’s of the league. How much offense would disqualify a defenseman? In theory I like it but I think in practice it could end up either doubling the spoils for the Norris winner or just turning the Norris into the “Best offensive defenseman”, which the Norris should not be. Sandis Ozolinsh types should never qualify for Norris discussions.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 8, 2009 12:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Give Lidstrom both trophies in years when he deserves them.
by James Mirtle on Feb 8, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. there is an award for the best defensive forward, so why not one for the best defensive defenseman?
by nuftjedi on Feb 8, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because the propositions are opposite. Forwards are supposed to score, so giving a forward an award for defensive play recognizes a supplemental part of his game. The analogous award to the Selke would be for the best offensive defenseman, not the best defensive defenseman. The Art Ross and Richard always go to forwards but are not technically limited to forwards. How many awards do we want? Do we want the Norris, Langway, and best offensive defenseman (Bobby Orr Award) award? Do we want the Gretzky award for most assists? The most fatal flaw in the Langway award to me is the fact that it is very hard to set a cut off line. How much offense disqualifies you from the Langway? Looking back through the Norris winners most of them would have at least been finalists for a Langway award so it just seems superflous.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 8, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As a fellow Caps fan you can appreciate this:
What about the Adam Oates trophy for the top assist man?
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Feb 8, 2009 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha. I got love for Adam Oates but a) he won’t go into the HoF wearing a Caps sweater and b) he’s not the best assist guy all time. I do like the idea of perpetuating Cap-named trophies though… How long until we rename the Richard the Ovechkin?
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 8, 2009 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Caps Trophies
Jim Carey Award – for one-year wonders.
Kelly Miller Award – consistent unsung hero or top penalty killer.
Martin Gendron/Alex Giroux Award – for top ‘AAAA’ player.
Lou Francesschetti Award – best middleweight pest.
Hatcher/Iafrate/Cote Trophy – best offensive output by a team defense.
Dale Hunter Award – Meanest SOB who’s really a nice guy off the ice.
by Cap74 on Feb 9, 2009 1:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of mean SOBs that are nice off the ice. The Dale Hunter award has to pay homage to the 1000/3000 club so I would say something more like the meanest SOB that can still rack up points.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 10, 2009 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Two More Tonight for Greenie!
He may not be in Coffey’s realm yet, but Orr’s 37 goals in 1970-71 might be within reach. If he does that, he wins the Norris.
by Scott in Shaw on Feb 7, 2009 8:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Green is far and away the best. No contest.
Yes Green is the best…..not even a contest. He runs circles around the rest of them and his scoring production is awesome. Tonights performance against the da panthers was brilliant. Issue closed!
by TheDaver44 on Feb 7, 2009 9:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Let me remind you doubters of a few things.....
People are trying to compare Green to Coffey…here is the problem…Green is a young fella yet. He has loads to time to mature and, in the end, he will put Coffee to shame. Mark my words…..He has more promise than any defenseman I have seen play the game.
by TheDaver44 on Feb 7, 2009 9:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Panthers are a good team....but.....
Panthers definitely brought their ’A ’game tonight and had a 5 minute penalty at the end of the game most of it with a 5 on 3 advantage and the Caps squashed them like bugs. Green scored probably the most brilliant open net goal I have ever seen after scoring the game winner. Huuuuuuuuahhhhhh!
by TheDaver44 on Feb 7, 2009 9:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Neal...must be a hapless Hab fan or some other loosing team.
Oy ve buddy yourself…come to Verizon and we send you home loosers.
by TheDaver44 on Feb 7, 2009 10:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Way to ruin a good discussion...
D Bag.
by Fehr and Balanced on Feb 8, 2009 12:07 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Anyway
The role of defenceman has changed in the last 10 years, and Green is a prototypical example of this. I don’t think you can be considered an elite defenceman in today’s NHL unless you’re proficient at making that first pass out of the zone, and at breaking the trap. It’s the most underrated aspect of Chris Pronger’s game, and also I suspect Zdeno Chara.
You can’t rely on chipping it off the glass anymore, and everyone’s caught on to the ‘firing it around the far boards’ move. In this era, a player like Green is much more valuable than a player who is better under pressure, but can’t end that pressure by breaking out of the zone.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Feb 8, 2009 12:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
One thing to take the piss out of...
Green has about double the shooting percentage of anyone else on James’s list, as well as double two of his other three years. Maybe it’s an advancement of the player, or maybe everything’s going in for him this year, and it might not sustain.
Not to say he’s not a good player, just saying that maybe his offensive numbers are a tad inflated this year, particularly that goal number.
by Doogie2K on Feb 9, 2009 7:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen...
his wrister? I’m still amazed the other 29 teams haven’t figured out he’s going to pinch down to the circle on the weak-side.
by wittcap79 on Feb 9, 2009 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong, I haven’t seen him play enough to say definitively he’s not good for it, it just strikes me as wildly unlikely that a defenceman is going to keep shooting 13.6%, a number that’s high even for a forward.
If he makes a career of pinching on rushes and getting golden chances in the slot, then I can totally see it, but until it becomes a pattern, it looks like an anomaly, and should be regarded with a wary eye. Tom Gilbert did something similar last year (albeit with smaller counting numbers), and it didn’t carry over.
by Doogie2K on Feb 10, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts on the Norris
I still think the Norris belongs to Lidstrom. There seems to be a “rush to anoint” the next great defenseman. I do understand the excitement of the horse race and the fun of comparing the merits of the next generation of Norris finalists. But let’s be honest, Lidstrom is the gold standard of defensemen. He thoroughly dominated the voting a year ago, and his performance has been only slightly below that level this year (and that’s largely due to a lingering elbow injury and the atrocious play of Chris Osgood).
My problems with the other candidates mentioned:
1. The support for Chara owes to a perfect storm of factors that don’t have much to do with Chara’s play. If Boston weren’t leading the league in points. Chara wouldn’t be considered the favorite. Get this, the guy is sixth in plus-minus ON HIS OWN TEAM (behind Michael Ryder, of all people). Clearly Chara is benefiting from his team’s play as much as he’s driving it. Oh, and let’s not forget, the Bruins are playing in an incredibly weak Eastern conference. I’d love to see Chara’s numbers when he’s not playing one of every three games against Ottawa, Tampa Bay, the New York Islanders, Atlanta and Toronto. Those five teams are easily the worst in the NHL.
2. Mike Green is an offensive force. But should you win the Norris without having a semblance of a complete game? And like Chara, would Green be putting up those numbers if he wasn’t also playing just as many games against the five worst teams in the NHL? I doubt it.
3. Boyle, Keith and Weber are all excellent players. They get less attention because they don’t play on the east coast. They should be in the hunt, but each comes up short in various ways. Boyle is more like Green than not, and Keith and Weber don’t provide enough offense to be considered the best. At least not this year.
You really have to watch Lidstrom on a consistent basis to understand how he controls a hockey game. He is a legitimate shutdown defenseman who puts up big points from the blue line. Anyone who watched the Wings-Penguins game last Sunday saw Lidstrom render Sidney Crosby thoroughly invisible. Lidstrom does all the little things that wins games: he defuses odd-man rushes, plays the angles perfectly, anticipates plays before they materialize, and then moves the puck back up the ice beautifully with tremendous skating, stick-handling and vision. (Do yourself a favor. Watch a Wings game and count how many seconds Lidstrom looks down at the puck. You won’t get above 10-15 seconds in a 27-minute outing. The guy has an otherworldly ability to play with his head up, which allows him to elude forecheckers, make tape-to-tape passes, and shoot on net with incredible accuracy.)
Someone else said it better. The next Norris winner should have to knock off the champ. And I don’t see that anyone’s done that this year (though I will admit the gap between Lidstrom and the field has definitely narrowed this year). But the award should go to the best defenseman, not just the best defenseman not named Lidstrom.
by scottlacy on Feb 15, 2009 1:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

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