Roy v. Brodeur
by James Mirtle on Mar 16, 2009 1:56 AM CDT
41 comments
It's the question of the week, one I've had to answer a number of times elsewhere already, so I might as well address it here.
Unfortunately, comparing wins of any sort to those put up in years past is becoming a mug's game. The wins Terry Sawchuk earned 50 years ago were tougher to come by in a general sense given they weren't given out for overtime or shootout victories, and the standings format has been monkeyed with so severely lately as to (unfortunately) take away from Martin Brodeur's pending accomplishment.
Not to mention the fact that Scott Clemmensen looked pretty darn good in his place.
Here's a quick and dirty by the numbers comparison of two of the greatest goaltenders in hockey history:
| Roy | Brodeur | |||
| Stats | All-time | Stats | All-time | |
| GP | 1,029 | 1 | 986 | 2 |
| W | 551 | T1 | 551* | T1 |
| L | 315 | 10 | 293 | 14 |
| T/OL | 131 | T7 | 127 | T9 |
| Pt% | 0.618 | 10 | 0.633 | 6 |
| SO | 66 | 14 | 100 | 2 |
| GAA | 2.54 | 30 | 2.20 | 7 |
| Saves | 25,807 | 1 | 22,585 | 3 |
| Sv/60 | 25.7 | 23.3 | ||
| Sv% | 0.910 | T13 | 0.914 | 6 |
| Playoffs | ||||
| GP | 247 | 1 | 169 | 2 |
| W | 151 | 1 | 95 | 2 |
| L | 94 | 1 | 74 | 2 |
| Pt% | 0.616 | 6 | 0.562 | 20 |
| SO | 23 | 1 | 22 | 2 |
| GAA | 2.30 | 24 | 1.96 | 9 |
| SV | 6565 | 1 | 3920 | 3 |
| Sv/60 | 25.9 | 22.4 | ||
| Sv% | 0.918 | 11 | 0.919 | 9 |
Scoring rates have also changed dramatically, even in the few years between the start of these two goaltenders' careers. The bulk of Roy's early years were spent during the high-flying '80s while Brodeur's second full campaign was the lockout-shortened 1994-95 season that ushered in the dead-puck era and Dominik Hasek's rise.
Who's the better goalie? For now, I think you have to go with Roy, mainly because of his postseason success, but it's quite likely Brodeur plays the remaining three years of his contract at a high level and ends up with well over 600 wins.
And even with the shootout wins, it's hard to see anyone challenging that for a long, long time.
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Brodeur
Cuz Roy’s kind of a douche.
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PLAYOFFS!!!!1
by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2009 2:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed, plus Brodeur didn’t win games by using oversized gear. If we are talking about overall skill Brodeur definitely has the edge, and even after Bordeur I would still put Hasek over Roy but that is an argument for another day.
40 years we've stayed loyal, waited, and pained. That is the honor of being a Leafs' fan.
by Kriv on Mar 16, 2009 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
totally agree
i like my goaltenders less douche-y…Im for guys who go around sleeping with their relatives.
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by poploser on Mar 16, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather a cheater than a wife beater
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by PPP on Mar 16, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brodeur divorced his wife and then married his ex-wife’s sister.
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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops I was off base:
"The Plaintiff (Ms Dubois) soon began to suspect that her husband was having an affair with her brother’s wife. In the summer of 2002, she confronted defendant (Mr. Brodeur) about her suspicions; both defendant and her sister-in-law denied having an affair, and plaintiff had no reason to disbelieve them. She allowed her brother and sister-in-law to remain living with them. On December 24, 2002, however, defendant admitted to having an adulterous relationship with his sister-in-law. When, on December 28, 2002, plaintiff learned that the affair was continuing, she removed defendant’s belongings from the marital home and asked him to leave. He stayed in hotels and then an apartment for the first few months of 2003."
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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you ever met Melanie Brodeur
you’d cheat on her too.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
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by poploser on Mar 16, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brodeur
Also kind of a douche
by Jibblescribbits on Mar 16, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
neither!
Both are great, ….comparison is futile like in most cases. But of course it seems to be important to some, always find that this one is better than that one…
Sport(not just hockey) is a sum of many factors why different people follow it, personally I enjoy when someone who is drummed to be bigger than game itself gets beaten by some rookie or just a normal mortal.
Different gears, time, teams and so on.
Plus hype can turn to hurtful e.g Crosby , kid just wanna play and now is laughingstock to many.
-anti-hype Inc- don’t feed the beast
by nudge on Mar 16, 2009 7:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Seperating Teams and Eras from Players...
If we coudl ahve these same stats for Roy and Brodeur’s goalie partners in those years we could seperate part of the effectws of eras and teams…
by Marley52 on Mar 16, 2009 7:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Patrick Roy
Three Conn Smythes and all of those #1 all-time in playoff stats. Marty? Second place (at best) and zero Conn Smythes. Game over.
Playoff performance is the ultimate tiebreaker.
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by Afino on Mar 16, 2009 7:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to go with Afino. To me a Conn Smythe is the single most valuable individual trophy (which means, other than the Cup!) that a player can have. 3 Conn Smythes over 0, end of story.
by Habs on Mar 16, 2009 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree wtih Afino too, I’d give the edge to Roy—and I say that without meaning any slight to Brodeur.
Roy outdueled Brodeur for the Cup in 2001, that has to factor in too, if only slightly since the series went to 7 games and OT, as close as you can get. Still, in the end it was Roy who’s will to win was a bit stronger.
by Hooks Orpik on Mar 16, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Roy was a slightly better goalie for this reason but definitely give Brodeur his due. Plus, I agree with James that once he passes the shutout mark, it really will solidify him in the era of shootout wins.
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by Blackcapricorn on Mar 16, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brodeur should have at least one Conn Smythe (1995 – come on, Claude Lemieux?) and could’ve shared the 2003 win with Giguere. I think it’s silly to put it all on something voted on by media members in the 2nd intermission of the game in which the Cup is awarded.
That said, in 2001 with virtually evenly matched teams, Roy came out on top. Hooks, 2001 was decided in regulation, not OT, in game 7. I think it was 3-1 Avs (Tanguay with 2 goals).
By regular season win %, both have virtually the same if you take away Brodeur’s 27 shootout wins. Brodeur’s shutout superiority is impressive as well, even if it is aided by his team. Also, Brodeur’s puckhandling skill gives him some points.
Brodeur has it in him to lead the Devils to yet another Cup. If Brodeur wins 5 in his career, without a single Conn Smythe, does that still make Roy a better playoff goalie? What about the 1998 Olympics vs. the 2002 Olympics? Or any Team Canada performance for Roy?
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by saskhab on Mar 16, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about the 1998 Olympics vs. the 2002 Olympics? Or any Team Canada performance for Roy?
Good points. Either way, these are two ridiculously good goalies.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Mar 16, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the last thing any one of us wants to do here is diminish the accomplishments of the other.
Shut up when you're talking to me!
by Afino on Mar 16, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about the 1998 Olympics vs. the 2002 Olympics?
Remember, that comparison doesn’t exactly flatter Brodeur despite the gold. He basically sucked his way into the final on the shoulders of his teammates, then was awesome in that one game. Roy lost the semifinal in the shootout after a 0-0 game. Brodeur’s latest World Cup performance was one of the better showings of international goaltending lately, though, including outdueling Kiprusoff in the final. And he was very good in 2006 too.
by Malurous on Mar 16, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LCS Hockey
has a typically insightful and comical take on this:
http://www.lcshockey.com/content/031609brodeur.asp
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://glensathersucks.wordpress.com/
by poploser on Mar 16, 2009 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard for a perfect comparison because of the difference in their eras, as James points out.
I give the slight edge to Roy simply because he changed the game so much. Patrick Roy is the reason 99% of goalies in the NHL use the butterfly today, which in turn is the main reason for the aforementioned “dead puck” era.
by Costa24 on Mar 16, 2009 11:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d say large equipment and the impunity with which skill players were mugged had more to do with the dead puck era than the butterfly on its own.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Mar 16, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And similarly
I blame the “dead puck era” more than the Devils’ “system” for why Brodeur’s GAA/SV% are better.
Shut up when you're talking to me!
by Afino on Mar 16, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True. In the 80s you could have a solid goaltending season with SV% under .900 and GAA over 3. Later, not so much.
by Malurous on Mar 16, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His personal life aside, the aspect of Brodeur that stands out is his loyalty to his organization. He could/would have made oodles more money if he decided to test the UFA market, yet to this day he remains underpaid for his worth to his team; allowing them to stay competitive year after year when many franchises have to under go dreadful rebuilding years to get back to competitiveness.
by Fauxrumors on Mar 16, 2009 2:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, he saves himself the agent fees (approx. 5%)… he negotiates his own deals.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
by saskhab on Mar 16, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
brody gets
the nod from me cause of the shutouts…in this era shutouts are few and far between for most goalies…not marty…roy….meh…never was too excited about him…if i had to pick a goalie at the top of his game for one game for all the marbles, i think i’d go with……..marty
the yotes 3rd uni sucks
by goldenbear64 on Mar 16, 2009 3:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If you had to choose 1 goalie (at the summit of his art) for SCF game 7, and you’re team is average in all aspects. No stellar D, no superstar goalscorer. Who do you choose?
My first pick is Hasek, but if we stick to those 2, I go with Roy.
by Habs on Mar 16, 2009 6:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No one better than Hasek in that scenario
He carried a far below average Sabres team to the Cup finals and kept them in contention for nearly a decade all by himself.
Shut up when you're talking to me!
by Afino on Mar 16, 2009 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That SV% is wrong
Brodeur’s career SV% is .914, not .919
by sunnymehta.com on Mar 16, 2009 10:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fixed, thanks. I had the playoff figure in for both numbers for some reason.
by James Mirtle on Mar 16, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re talking about two absolutely phenomenal “big game” goalies here, but I think I have to give Roy the edge based on the systems each goalie played within.
by Jacques Strap on Mar 17, 2009 7:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Brodeur
Personally, I feel that you can not say that over sized pads put a goalie at a huge advantage. 1 inch is merely something that can’t make or break a goalie on a shot. However, from a player’s stand point an illegal curve can change the game by giving them an advantage over shots. Now before the rule of the pads was all put in effect every goalie had a hard time adjusting, and from my knowledge Marty had the toughest time. Also from my knowledge he started declining as the Devils almighty defense folded. The Devils game is all defense, they rush the puck up in attempt to score early, when they do they run back and play defense almost like on a penalty kill but in full strength. You cant simply say that Marty is a god without first looking at who contended the ice in front of him. Roy was truly an amazing goalie who withstood many upsets, but despite his defense failing he surged past them to make the saves. Marty on the other hand once the defense failed he had nothing; now I am not underrating his skill as a player however I simply don’t think he is up for the title “the best.” Hasek would definitely be a choice over Brodeur for me but that is because most of the goalies of today are not up to the same par as they were years ago. But Hasek could not stand in goal for long every season it was a new injury I cant even count how many time he pulled his groin. As a more sportsman driven goalie with better leadership skills would be a Richter or a Kipprosov. With that said I dont believe the NHL is the same league today that it was years ago. Yes, you do have tallent but the game has changed its away from its classic style and alot of the tallent, sportsmanship, leaders have left the game. The once greats are not there any more, now I’m not simply undermining Ovechkin, Iginla, Crosby etc. but they are nothing compared to Gretzky, Messier, Jager and players of that level that are now gone and retired. These players played the game for more than just money, and to me there isnt many goalies that are the same way or at least take on that selfless attitude that is needed to call them the best because statistics aren’t everything.
by vpicone on Mar 17, 2009 6:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
personnal life outside of the rink
as much sa i respect u’r rught to views about these actions, they don’t address the issue that as pro athlete’s go : trying to pick the " best " player of any sport or position : misses the point completely…in the 50’s when baseball writers rode the trains with the teams .. the code was to not write about such things but to confine comments to the players deeds when the job was at hand. PERFORMANCE : still the only criteria that SHOULD MATTER !!! judgeing a player on any less than these parameters is just as much gutter snipe as the deeds you desipse…
vince
by ahuha on Mar 17, 2009 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
These stats are even closer than Mirtle shows
http://fantasysensehockey.blogspot.com/2009/03/is-brodeur-greatest-of-all-time.html
Adding in all the outside factors makes a legit difference.
by Wamsley on Mar 18, 2009 10:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ve addressed the issue of shootout wins in the intro to my post. It’s pretty clear their win totals aren’t equal given what’s happened with the standings the past few years.
by James Mirtle on Mar 18, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff on the goals against average calculations though – it makes sense given Roy had a few season with a very high GAA.
by James Mirtle on Mar 18, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just goes to show
How much of a difference the shootouts make. It alters the win percentage greatly.
It is unfortunate that gamelogs from the 80s/90s are so hard to come by. I would like to see how many of Roy’s/Brodeurs’s losses would have registered as OT/L. This would have improved both of their winning percentage’s.
It is a debate that will never end unless Brodeur manages to win back to back Conn Smyth/Stanley Cups in the next 2-3 seasons. THat would likely cement his status.
by Wamsley on Mar 18, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s definitely going to pile up the wins going forward. Right now, Roy has the edge, but that might change if Brodeur can approach 650 wins.
by James Mirtle on Mar 18, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends on what you consider important
Roy’s playoff stats are more impressive and the 3 Conn Smyth trophies will always keep him in the argument. 3 Conn Smyth trophies is unmatched in the history of the award. Not matched by Gretzky or Lemieux. Until Brodeur gets one that will be held over his head just like the 650 wins would be held over Roy’s.
It pretty even and even though I favour Roy, I can understand the argument against him.
by Wamsley on Mar 18, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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