Group proposes second Toronto team

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 8:57 AM CDT Comment 28 comments

A group of business people wants to bring a second team to the Greater Toronto Area, and the National Hockey League took the group seriously enough to grant it an audience.

The unidentified group met with NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly in downtown Toronto last week, according to sources. The group proposes to build an arena at the intersection of Highways 427 and 7 in Vaughan, Ont., on land north of Pearson International Airport that's owned by businessman Victor De Zen.

– David Shoalts, The Globe and Mail

Here's a look at the area we're talking about, marked on the map below as 'B' and showing the Air Canada Centre (where the Leafs currently play) as 'A':

View Larger Map

I likely wouldn't have said this prior to moving to Toronto, but after having lived here for six or seven years, it's very clear that a second team in – or close to – the city would be a huge success. The demand for NHL tickets is so incredible at the moment, even with a very poor team, that the Leafs can charge whatever they please, and it's downright impossible to get a decent seat to a game for less than $200. Many lower bowl seats sell for twice that.

There are some major stumbling blocks, obviously, when it comes to invading the Leafs' territory, with one of the main ones being the cost involved. It would take some serious cash flow to pull this off:

The total cost would be upward of $800-million — perhaps $200-million for the franchise, at least $200-million in territorial-rights fees and up to $400-million for an arena.

One NHL governor and one NHL owner, who both favour putting another franchise in Toronto, say economic conditions will prevent it for "the near term."

In other words, still a fairytale for now.

I'm not sure that a second NHL club in this city would do much for American hockey fans, other than strengthen the league by having an ailing franchise become a sound one. Having Toronto-based fans pump more dollars into NHL coffers would likely lead to an increased salary cap and greater hockey-related revenues, which isn't great news for teams already struggling to keep up. (Then again, it could also potentially mean another big fish to pay into revenue sharing.)

For Canadian hockey fans, however, the new team would be a huge boon. There are a lot of transplants in Toronto, like myself, who are hockey fans but not Leafs fans, and I could see many taking up the new franchise as their own (especially if tickets are more widely available). For Leafs fans, it would mean another regional rival and some heated intercity competition; for fans in other NHL cities in this country, it'd be another Toronto team to cheer against.

Those would all be positives for the NHL – especially if the league wants to remain a 30-team one in challenging economic times. We already know that the idea has some support at the board of governors level, but the big question is just how widespread is that support?

Poll

Do you want to see a second NHL team in the Greater Toronto Area?

Yes

449 votes

No

106 votes

555 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

Why not? Whether its Toronto or elsewhere in Ontario, there is clearly a demand for another team and I am all for making the NHL stronger not weaker and this would definitely strengthen the league for all the reasons you mentioned James.

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Apr 23, 2009 9:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And also might mean the death of the Sabres.

Toronto’s not as bad as Hamilton would be, but it’s no secret that a significant portion of Sabres fans (not sure of the exact number, but enough of a percentage to matter) live in Southern Ontario and go to Sabres games solely because they can’t afford/can’t get into Leafs games. If given a choice between driving an hour, hopping over the border (which can take another hour, plus the hassle), and taking another 20 minutes down to HSBC or just going up 30 minutes or less to Toronto’s 2nd team, what do YOU think they’re going to do?

Death may be too strong a word, but with people cutting back in Western New York already due to the economy, it’s tough. With the Sabres’ lack of identity and lack of what Sabres fans want (winning team, or at the VERY least, a team that gives an honest effort every night), WNY’ers are talking about not going to games anymore. If you cut out the significant number of Southern Ontario fans with a second Toronto team, now they’re really in trouble.

You’d have to think the territorial rights would not only cover Toronto, but Buffalo too. They’d better at least try for it.

Shut up when you're talking to me!

by Afino on Apr 23, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Afino- I am going to have disagree with you about our maddening Sabres. While its true their fan base is partially composed of Canadians, I think the first 2 seasons after the lockout really caused a lot of excitement in Buffalo about the team and there would be people to take over the seats (assuming the Sabres begin to ice a competitive team again). Also, I am willing to bet that some of the Hamilton fans will still come so it won’t be a total loss from North of the border.

In terms of people cutting down on their entertainment dollars (especially in WNY) you are right but this downturn isn’t going to last forever and if they can get a slice of that territorial rights fee from the new team, it could help their bottom line until the economy picks up again. Yes, the Sabres will probably be hurt in the short term but I don’t see this as a death sentence or anything. I think Buffalo (despite the economic and population impediments) is one of the true hockey markets in the US and will be able to absorb 2 teams in TO.

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Apr 23, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, the Sabres are talked about in the article. Give it a read.

I don’t think Buffalo would lose many fans given the majority of people frequenting this second team’s games would be from downtown Toronto. Almost all of the Canadian Sabres fans are coming from much closer to Buffalo than that.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I apologize, I didn’t read the whole thing before posting.

(Guess that would have solved that whole post, eh?)

Shut up when you're talking to me!

by Afino on Apr 23, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This might come off harshly, but frankly, if the Sabres find themselves in dire straits as a result of this, that’s their problem.

Why should Canadian hockey fans – who you seem to think are propping up the Sabres – be denied a team closer to home just because there apparently aren’t enough hockey fans (with money) to support a team in Buffalo?

Putting franchises closer to where paying customers are is just good business – in any industry.

by dzuunmod on Apr 23, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love the fans in Buffalo, but I agree with this comment. You shouldn’t deny fans two hours away the chance to see NHL hockey because they’re willing to travel that far to see it.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This makes perfect sense to me.

I liken a second hockey team in GTA, to New York and Chicago having two baseball teams. Similar to not everyone in Toronto being a Leafs fan, not everyone in New York is a Yankees fan.

Other comments in nor particular order.:

Somewhere the NHL is going to have to make a decision that does not directly benefit the American hockey fan.

Is GTA preferred over Southern Ontario to minimize the impact on Buffalo?

Will the AHL Marlies survive in this scenario? (as a side note, I have concerns over the health of minor league hockey given the economy of the last year)

Could it be as easy as flipping the Toronto AHL franchise to Phoenix in exchange for their NHL franchise?

by cubanpuckstopper on Apr 23, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The Marlies draw flies as is. The Leafs save money on flights, etc., when they make callups by having them close, so I think they’re willing to put up with the poor attendance.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ladies and gentlemen, your Thornhill Thunder!

(Well, Islanders is already taken…)

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Apr 23, 2009 10:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Would a second team in GTA be the kind of impetus the Leafs need to truly finally get their house in order and commit to putting quality product on the ice? If they’re essentially printing money, what financial incentive do they have to be anything more than mediocre?

by Alyson on Apr 23, 2009 10:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I voted yes, just because I hate the Leafs. A little competition would help the residents find descent priced tickets.

by wlittle on Apr 23, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Seems to be a no brainer, if the group can get the money together.
As for potential problems Buffalo is probably going to face a dropoff in Canadian fans if the border continues to be tightened up and the wait to get into the New York gets longer.
However we’ve seen that the NHL has no problem propping up franchises facing financial difficulty so they can always get in line.

by yrmom on Apr 23, 2009 11:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup. I don’t see a team anywhere else in Southern Ontario being nearly as successful as a second team in Toronto, so it has to be there.

Re: Afino’s Buffalo Concern. I think you might be underestimating demand for NHL hockey in Toronto and underestimating the hatred for Toronto outside Toronto. Tickets for a second TO team won’t be cheap or easily available either, and fans in southwest of Toronto will still hate the new team as much as they do the Leafs. Buffalo will feel it, but not as much as the Leafs, who’ll lose a lot of the premium they charge business ticket buyers.

Re: Alyson’s Maple Laughs. Whether you agree with the moves or not, hiring Brian Burke and Ron Wilson is a pretty clear sign that MLSE is trying to get their house in order regardless. And just because they print money during the regular season with a crappy team doesn’t mean they’re not interested in printing much more money with a good team and a real playoff run.

by RyanV on Apr 23, 2009 11:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m not really underestimating Toronto’s demand for a 2nd team. They definitely have it.

And good point about the Leafs losing their “monopoly” over the Toronto hockey scene. If there’s competition in town, odds are people are going to flock to the lower price, and MLSE can’t afford to charge that premium anymore.

Shut up when you're talking to me!

by Afino on Apr 23, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That’s the biggest thing holding this from ever happening. The NHL would have to somehow appease MLSE, and it’d involve a huge fee for the new team.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know james

The money given to Kings by the Ducks and the Flyers, Rangers and Islanders by the Devils
was voluntary. I think any savy new owner could take this to court and win. We really don’t know as the past incidents of terretorial rights has always been a voluntary payment. Never court mandated.

Is it good business to grease the wheel, sure but if leafs demand $200 Mil, I think they might not win that one in court.

Leafs selling hope to the hopeless since 1967

by Toe Blake Hockey on Apr 23, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only way I can see this happening is with full support from the league, as they’ll be granting the franchise. I doubt then that the new ownership is going to go against the league’s wishes and take them to court over the rights fee.

It’ll be negotiated, and it’d be big.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Benefits for the league and the players

This is a good move in my mind. Vaughan’s a great location from a territorial perspective, as it’s on the other side of Toronto from Buffalo, and the Sabres have much more to lose in my mind. There will be a ton of demand for the Leafs regardless of what happens here, but a team in Hamilton or Kitchener would significantly reduce the Sabres’ cross-border fan base. It’s also close enough to downtown Toronto to attract fans from all over the region.

James makes an excellent point about how this could help the league as a whole. Considering the amount of money the Leafs make and how much they contribute to revenue sharing, it seems likely that a second GTA team would also aid the NHL’s overall finances, especially if it replaced a team like Phoenix that’s a drain on the league at the moment. That’s why I found Shoalts’ mention of this group’s discussions with Paul Kelly particularly interesting. Bettman and company obviously have substantial face to save and would be reluctant to consider moving American teams to Canada, but the new cap means that the players have a very considerable economic interest in keeping the league profitable. Kelly’s said before that he likes the idea of a second Toronto team, and pressure from the players might be very helpful in getting this done.

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Whitecaps correspondent for 24thminute.com.

by Andrew Bucholtz on Apr 23, 2009 3:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I’ve long held that the NHL and NHLPA are leaving money on the table by NOT putting a 2nd team in the GTA. Clearly that market is under served.

Not only are many middle-class people priced out of attending a NHL game in Toronto, think of all the business that can’t afford to buy a luxury box at ACC but might be able to purchase a box at a 2nd franchise to take their employees or clients out for a night of NHL hockey.

My only stipulation for granting a 2nd NHL team to the GTA is a moratorium of annoying posts by people from Canada about all the US markets that don’t “deserve” a team (a man can dream can’t he?).

by The Falconer on Apr 23, 2009 4:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Problem being that a lot of Canadian fans don’t want a second team in the GTA. Especially people in Western Canada who, for whatever reason, don’t see the market as underserved.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not it, and frankly, I don’t get those people. Another team in Toronto makes a lot more sense from every perspective than a second go at Winnipeg (who, if they wanted an NHL team, should’ve built MTS Centre 3,000 seats bigger to start with).

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)

by Doogie2K on Apr 23, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It always makes me shake my head to read the usual “of course a second team in Toronto would be successful!!!!” In the next breath, they then talk about how tickets would become more affordable, assuming that the new team would not charge the Leafs-level prices that are the very thing that make them successful.

I for one have my doubts about the success of a second team in TO, for a variety of reasons. I don’t think many people have a good handle on exactly what it is that drives the financial success of the Leafs (three hints, just for starters: location, location, location).

As a further aside (as if that were not enough to get people’s noses in the air), no one has really considered the impact of an additional arena on the arena business of MLSE.

by Gerald on Apr 23, 2009 5:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I am not referring to your “of course …” reaction specifically, James. Every other poster in this thread, and many other fans, share that reaction.

by Gerald on Apr 23, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point on the last one there.

And you’re right, the tickets would be damn expensive. Not as much as the Leafs charge, but probably some of the highest in the league.

I personally have no doubt they’d be successful, though. The location is placed on two main highways for a reason.

by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lotsa People Want Teams

Gary said so in his weekly address on the radio today.
That man is so full of himself it’s hilarious.

by Exit716 on Apr 23, 2009 8:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Question from an ignorant British Columbian

If this Vaughan location doesn’t work out, could Mississauga work? Wikipedia says it’s huge, suburban (which I read as moneyed-middle-classish) and looking to establish a municipal identity. It’s also dece close to Toronto proper. Would calling a team the Mississauga _____s alienate the rest of the region? Could municipal support be drummed up?

by passive_voice on Apr 24, 2009 2:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

They’re going to want to avoid traffic congestion and putting a team in the middle of Mississauga wouldn’t mean for the easiest commute out of Toronto’s downtown. Still, I imagine the team could work there, too, but it’s not ideal.

by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs