The Norris nominees come in
by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 6:53 PM CDT
41 comments
In what's not a huge surprise, the NHL revealed earlier today that Zdeno Chara, Mike Green and Nick Lidstrom are the three finalists for the Norris Trophy this season.
There was a pretty wide consensus that those were the three top defenders in the league this season, but I bet the battle between Chara and Green for the award is a close one.
It's an interesting matchup, to be sure, with a 6-foot-9 behemoth that's so tough to beat in his own end and has led his team to the top of the Eastern Conference up against a smallish but supremely skilled dynamo who had what was only the seventh 30-goal campaign by a defender in NHL history.
Tough call.
I wavered a bit between the two, but ultimately stuck with my convictions from this post toward the end of the season. I'll be fine with either player winning, as both were terrific during the season.
Here's my ballot:
- Mike Green, Washington
- Zdeno Chara, Boston
- Nick Lidstrom, Detroit
- Duncan Keith, Chicago
- Kimmo Timonen, Philadelphia
Keith and Timonen may be a bit of a departure from who other voters select fourth and fifth, but I put less emphasis than most on point production when it comes to the Norris. All of these players are in the top 21 in scoring and ice time per game for defencemen, but the key for all five of the blueliners I chose was that they had excellent years at both ends of the ice and were huge reasons their teams finished where they did in the standings.
All five also play significant minutes while shorthanded and on the power play, and their teams outscored the opposition when they were on the ice. They're all also in the top 15 in plus-minus, for what that's worth, and play tough minutes on their teams.
Those are players that should win the Norris, in my mind.
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I think if more writers explained themselves, we’d see fewer weird ballots. I like your reasoning.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Apr 23, 2009 7:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
“but I put less emphasis than most on point production when it comes to the Norris”
“Doughty did have a great year, especially given his age, but he was outscored pretty badly to be a Calder nominee”
Not to be jerk and I realize that the awards aren’t that important, but aren’t these to rationales contradictory?
by Nut on Apr 23, 2009 7:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
All right, but how is being outscored when you’re on the ice at even strength and putting up a lot of points (which for a defenceman generally come on the power play) related? And why should the rational for the Norris be used for the Calder, where you’re comparing forwards, defencemen and goaltenders?
Doughty was outscored badly when he was on the ice. None of the players I’ve listed for the Norris were.
by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t speak for Nut, but I for one misunderstood your earlier post. I thought you meant that Doughty was badly outscored by other rookies, not that his team was outscored while he was on the ice. It makes more sense now; I was surprised that you’d offer the former as a rationale.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Apr 24, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I thought you meant outscored by other rookies too. Point taken.
by Nut on Apr 24, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where are the ??
Langway stats?
How can anyone make an objective comparison with just the offensive stats?
I think Chara who was Mr. Everything for Boston this season deserves it. I think Green, while explosive came back to earth a bit late in the season.
As a Hawk fan I see a lot of Keith and contrary to what is the popular sentiment, I think him and Seabrook are a pair made better by one another. I don’t think either is in the class of Chara right now.
by cubby23 on Apr 23, 2009 9:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Last time I asked you why Chara was getting Norris contention, you pointed out that he was on pace to be 40. Since then, he’s been 3, and he wound up 7th on his team (10 more games played than Kessel), second among defencemen, and fifth among defencemen on his team in +/ per minute (dead last among the four defencemen who played 70 games). He’s dead last among all defencemen on his team in GA/60. He does play the toughest competition, on his team, but so do Lidstrom, Keith, and Timmonen while putting up better ES numbers (and except for Keith, better PP numbers too).
Great defenceman, but this just hasn’t been his year. Other than being one of the best PK’ers in the league, he simply hasn’t been in Norris territory this year.
by RyanV on Apr 23, 2009 9:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Darned crazy formatting. What I meant to say at the start of the strikethrough was that he’s been -3.
The end of the strikethrough is obviously supposed to be +/-.
by RyanV on Apr 23, 2009 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That strikethrough business is ridiculous. I’ll see if we can get it fixed.
I’d probably have to pull out all of the numbers for the top 20 defencemen and compare them in depth to properly answer this one, but I’ll say this: I’m not sure comparing Chara’s goals against figures to the Bruins second-line forwards is the best way to measure his effectiveness. He was fifth in the league in minutes per game, had 50 points, was plus-23 and if you look at big-minute defencemen, he was right among the leaders in terms of having his team out score the opposition when he was on the ice against the toughest opposition possible.
His quality of teammate figure is lower than every other guy I’ve listed. His ES numbers are better than Timonen’s in terms of out scoring and fairly close to everyone else. His PK figures are excellent (but not as good as Green, who would have likely seen the second unit exclusively).
Chara had a very, very good season, but you’re right, so did a lot of Bruins. He’s getting a lot of credit for leading a team that had a great season (and for having been a great defencemen for a long, long time now).
He’s dead last among all defencemen on his team in GA/60.
Okay, but look at the gap in qual. comp between Chara and the defencemen he wasn’t on the ice with. He paired with Ward and Wideman all year, but other than that, the other guys are seeing soft, soft minutes. On the Wings, the Kronwall-Stuart pair shouldered some of the load, and Green was right in the middle. You watch Boston, and they give Chara everything (especially when Ference was out).
He’s top three for sure. That said, by all these numbers we’re talking about, Green looks very good.
by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the first time in quite a while, I think that all 3 finalists are very worthy. You could definitely make a sound and rational argument for all three.
If Lidstrom happens to win, so be it…but I hope that people don’t say it’s a reputation win, because as good as Green and Chara were, he’s right there with them.
Still, you can’t argue that much against Green. He kind of has a reputation as an offense-only defender, but the stats don’t back that up. And I can’t even remember the last time an NHL d-man put up MORE than a point per game over the course of a season.
I would guess you’d have to go back to the heyday of Leetch and the end of Coffey’s prime to find someone on the blueline that was able to do that with regularity. Pretty amazing feat.
Green would get my vote too…but it would hardly be a travesty if Chara or even Lidstrom won it.
by Make a play Whitner on Apr 23, 2009 10:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s been 13 years since a defender (Zubov and Leetch) had more than a point a game. Pretty impressive.
by James Mirtle on Apr 23, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Green can be great
Soon as Washington gets a real coach.
Tick tock, the clock is striking midnight on the career minor leaguer behind the bench.
by Exit716 on Apr 23, 2009 11:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If professional playing career is how you judge a coach’s merit, I think that’s patently ridiculous. Ask how lucrative Scotty Bowman’s pro career was that made him into such an all-time coach. I’m not saying Boudreau hasn’t been out-coached so far in the playoffs, but how exactly do you define a “real coach”?
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on Apr 23, 2009 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Boudreau’s awful. Just ignore how he has turned a last place team into 2nd in the conference in 1 and a half years. The number of points he has in the NHL as a player is all that counts.
by Bonzai on Apr 24, 2009 7:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, ignore Green’s stats pre and post Boudreau. Its probably something else entirely that caused them to skyrocket.
by Bonzai on Apr 24, 2009 7:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing: The James Norris Memorial Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League’s top “defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position”. So, the choice is as usual Lidstrom and it´s not even close.
by yannick on Apr 24, 2009 8:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
tsk tsk
Oh James, picking flash over substance, Coffey over Bourque, Boy George over Elvis Costello. I know the playoffs don’t count in your consideration but picking Green over Chara certainly isn’t panning out when the chips are down. Green isn’t there as a leader nor as a complete player (especially toughness) as Chara is.
Next time you vote, ask yourself this. Who would you want to have as your defense partner when you’re going in the corner with Avery’s stick coming at your head? Green won’t bail you out (or make Avery think twice about nailing you). Chara will. Tsk, tsk.
by rmc86 on Apr 24, 2009 9:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know how you could make a case for either Chara or Green and not have your same arguments show that Lidstrom is even better. He is still a phenomenal player who drives the bus on the blueline in Detroit, both defensively and offensively*. Chara is an awesome defenseman but not even close to Lidstrom, and having Green placed above Lidstrom is an insult.
(and yes, as a Flames fan, I didn’t think Phaneuf deserved a nomination last year).
*Lidstrom’s second among the Detroit D in both GFON/60 and GAON/60 in Detroit. He is first among the Detroit D in the differential between the two. He enjoys excellent linemates, but faces the toughest competiion on the team. Not only that, he faces the toughest competiion in the league, and is second in +/-.
by R O on Apr 24, 2009 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Curious
With your rationale, shouldn’t Niedermeyer, Chris Pronger, Rob Blake or even Tom Gilbert get a vote instead of Timonen?.
I hate to be the only to keep beating this drum, but every year the finalists in every major award seem to be from the Eastern conference or Detroit/Chicago, which most hockey scribes seem to want in the Eastern conference so they don’t even have to bother to pay attention to the Western Conference at all. It’s a shame that Boyle, Niedermeyer, or Weber didn’t make the finals this season. All three were worthy finalists.
by Jibblescribbits on Apr 24, 2009 10:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ve wondered for a while why not just have awards by conferences?
Baseball does it, and it has always made sense to me. Award a Norris to the best defenseman in the Eastern conference and another to the best in the Western conference, choose an Eastern conference MVP and a Western conference MVP, and so on. The voters would have a chance to pay more attention to fewer players, and choose among players that played against each other more often so it would be easier to judge them against each other.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Apr 24, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All right, all right … I’ll try and run the numbers on all of these guys. In my opinion, these five were the top defencemen this year. I’m open to arguments that don’t rely on that old “why do you hate the West?” standby.
With my rationale, none of those three qualify. I looked in detail at Weber, and the five I’ve picked were all ahead of him in most metrics other than scoring goals. Niedermayer was out scored at even strength when he was on the ice, and Pronger was even. Yes, they play big minutes, but their teams didn’t have great years, and when they’re playing close to 30 minutes a night, some of that falls on them.
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neidermayer at least should be rated above Green (which is to say, neither of them deserve a nomination). Of the Dmen on Anaheim, he played the hardest competition with the worst teammates and nearly held his head above water. Of course, “nearly holding your head above water” is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the Norris, but then again, neither is putting up gaudy PP points while playing middling competition on a stacked offensive team (Green).
I do like your endorsement of Keith though.
by R O on Apr 24, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compare their 5-on-5 stats and it’s very clear that Green was the better defender at even strength this year. Not even close if you ask me.
by thepenismightier on Apr 24, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Green defended well against mediocre opposition. The Norris isn’t a competition of the mediocre, it’s a competition of the elite. I’ll take the guy who can just about break even against the toughs while carrying around liabilities, than the guy who slots in the 2nd/3rd pairing while being sheltered by awesome players.
Although my caveat does state that neither deserve to be nominees, simply because Lidstrom, Chara and Keith slot above them.
by R O on Apr 24, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can understand using quality of competition/teammates to compare defenseman who have similar stats over the course of the season, but the statistical disparity between Green & Niedermayer this year is much too large to be attributed only to teammates/opponents.
by thepenismightier on Apr 24, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
putting up gaudy PP points while playing middling competition on a stacked offensive team (Green)
Any guess which defencemen had the most even-strength points?
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That does take a bit of the shine off my argument. I didn’t know that.
But still, I stand by my point. Green’s offensive game is first class, but he’s a defenseman, and his defensive game is nowhere near the elite level of a guy like Lidstrom. And Lidstrom’s offensive contributions are quite respectable to boot. It would be like if there was a specific award exclusive to forwards (kind of like the Selke I guess, but the Selke doesn’t capture the significance of the Norris), and it was given to an checking centre who almost never got scored on, but did it against second/third liners and couldn’t put up more than 40 pts a year.
by R O on Apr 24, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well this wasn’t meant just at you, and I certainly think you put a lot more thought and effort into it than many voters, so it wasn’t a criticism of you per-say.
I mean we’re about to get another season where the East flat-out dominating the end-of year awards, despite pretty much universal agreement that the West is the better conference. If you went on awards you’d think there wasn’t any good hockey being played West of the Mississippi.
by Jibblescribbits on Apr 24, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true. For things like the Hart, playing on a deep team like Detroit or San Jose is actually a detriment, it seems.
The high-end offensive talent is just in the East again this year, so it’s not a conference bias. And Boston’s incredible year is going to mean they do very well in terms of awards.
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the Hart is for the “most valuable player to his team” so it stands to reason that when you structure your team like San Jose or Detroit (lots of talent, lots of balance, contributions from everyone), that no single player becomes significantly more valuable than another.
Of course that’s the right way to do things, and although it’s a shame that it will hurt those players’ chances at individual awards, there’s only one trophy in the end that matters and it’s awarded to the best team. Some consolation prize, huh?
by R O on Apr 24, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, that’s a good way of looking at it, sure.
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think part of the problem is that the West is so loaded that the better western conference players never get a night off, unless they are playing the Avs or Coyotes in the second half of the season. It allows Eastern Conference players to get better looking stats in terms of points and such, and factored into the East coast bias A player from the west has to be head and shoulders above the rest to even be considered for a trophy.
Another Example of East coast bias: Lady Byng trophies: Datsyuk, St. Louis, Parise
Western conference players with 50+ points and PIM stats as good as, or better: Milan Hejduk: 16PIM, Patrick Marleau: 18PIM, Pavel Demitra: 20PIM, Andrew Brunette: 18PIM, JP Dumont: 20PIM, Loui Eriksson (14PIM),
compared to Parise: (24PIM) , Datsyuk (22PIM), and St. Louis (14PIM).
I think the fact that Milan Hejduk has never even been nominated for a Lady Bing is a joke.
by Jibblescribbits on Apr 24, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no clue how anyone votes for the Byng. I picked Lidstrom.
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But isn’t the criteria for that trophy sportsmanship, being a “gentleman” and all that COMBINED with being a very good player? It’s not necessarily about a guy putting up the lowest PIM totals.
Datsyuk is one of the top 5 players in the league. Parise had an amazing year, he led the league in points among all players not in the NBC Hockey League. Both are very deserving.
You could argue Marleau over St. Louis this year…and guys like Demitra, Dumont, Hejduk, etc. are very nice players- but while their PIMs might be low enough to qualify, they pretty much pale in comparison to the nominees in terms of production.
by Make a play Whitner on Apr 24, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
But isn’t the criteria for that trophy sportsmanship, being a "gentleman" and all that COMBINED with being a very good player? It’s not necessarily about a guy putting up the lowest PIM totals.
How in the world has Milan Hejduk never been a finalist? He was a Richard winner one season, and has had 70+ points 5 times.
by Jibblescribbits on Apr 24, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure not even Milan cares about this one.
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re down a goal with a minute to go you put Green on the ice. If you’re up a goal with a minute to go you put Chara on the ice. Either way, Lidstrom is the other D on the ice.
by Fehr and Balanced on Apr 24, 2009 8:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Someone should find a way to get Green and Chara paired together.
by James Mirtle on Apr 24, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only Green were good enough to be an All Star…
by Fehr and Balanced on Apr 24, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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