We like where we are. And this is not something that you take a snap shot over. We believe that our franchises can all be successful where they're currently located. And somebody could have asked me the same question that you just asked eight years ago about the Canadian franchises. They could have said; 'Why do you have any franchises other than Toronto or Montreal?' eight or ten years ago, because the buildings in all the other places were two-thirds to half empty. And the answer is because that's where we belong having franchises. We're working with our fans. And we don't run out on cities. We try to make it work. I think at this stage to pronounce that our expansion and the places where we are isn't working is premature.
With respect to television, the television landscape is a lot more complicated than the discussion about it. Taking the year off that we took had an impact on where we are and who had what needs when, and the perceived value of our product.
– Gary Bettman takes on a few hostile reporters at the Stanley Cup finals yesterday in Detroit. The full text is available here; there's some good stuff there so please feel free to post some of your favourite passages in the comments.
5 months ago
James Mirtle
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Schedule
So if the teams would want the season to start later in October (understandable), and they don’t want the season stretching this long….
….there’s only two solutions here. Cut the preseason out entirely, or trim the actual schedule. I would think the former happens than the latter, though.
"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."
"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."
by Afino on May 31, 2009 8:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, he really makes it sound like he wants no part of Balsillie as an owner. Nice job not answering the questions, Gary.
"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."
"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."
by Afino on May 31, 2009 8:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Snooooooooze.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://glensathersucks.com/
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by poploser on May 31, 2009 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fact Check in Aisle Twelve Please?
‘Why do you have any franchises other than Toronto or Montreal?’ eight or ten years ago, because the buildings in all the other places were two-thirds to half empty. And the answer is because that’s where we belong having franchises. We’re working with our fans.
James, what do you say about this statement factually? My sense is that this statement is more or less accurate.
I’m no Bettman apologist, but if it’s true, and I think that it is, those who are so vehement in opposition to the Tiny L’il Commish should probably acknowledge this – and the measures that the league took to protect Canadian franchises (schedule alterations, currency programs, etc.) – when spewing through their vitriol about the guy.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on May 31, 2009 10:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In 1999 the Canadian dollar was worth 65 cents. I think that may have had a little more to do with the resurgence of the teams north of the border than anything that Gary did.
Oh, and they didn’t let teams cut and run? I’m sure that those in Quebec and Winnipeg would be happy to respond.
"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov
by PRC on May 31, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think those same people in Quebec City and Winnipeg should ask where there were any owners willing to buy and keep the team in those cities first.
Phoenix at least has options remaining now even with their losses. The Jets and Nordiques, as history shows, did not.
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by John Fischer on May 31, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Phoenix at least has options remaining now even with their losses.
I’m going to reserve judgment on that until we see what those options actually are. There’s a reason Moyes didn’t want on board with whatever the league’s plan was.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on May 31, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What James said. Moyes has wanted out for a long time now. Is there a reason that these phantom “interested parties” waited until now to come forward? (In as much as they actually have come forward, that is…)
by dzuunmod on Jun 1, 2009 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the Canadian Assistance Plan. Let’s take that old relic for a spin, shall we?
It is absolutely true that attendance was a problem for some Canadian teams, but keep in mind that to qualify for the currency assistance, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Ottawa had to have 13,000 season tickets sold before the season started, as well as meeting other financial benchmarks. They got about 3 million dollars per team, a total less than Nashville will get by themselves this season. Let’s not get carried away in some era of good feeling. The league certainly helped the small market Canadian teams, but it pales in comparison the current revenue sharing formula, and considering the hoops that Canadian teams had to jump through to qualify, it’s an unfair comparison. The league will go to the mat to keep teams in the U.S. Would they do the same without reservation in Canada? I think history has already answered that.
by Robert Cleave on May 31, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure it was $3 million per team?
I found this CBC archive link and from how I interpret it, it sounds like it was $2.7 million divided by four teams.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2001/12/04/nhl-ccap011204.html
by Exit716 on May 31, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. It was per team. It got as high as 3.4 million U.S. in 01/02, I believe.
by Robert Cleave on May 31, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
When all this Phoenix mess was mentioned to Pierre McGuire a few weeks ago on Team 990 in Montreal, he implied that the Habs were teetering on the brink of moving in the late 1990s. What criteria did they fail to meet then? Hell, during the lock out Karmanos went on WDFN in Detroit and implied that Montreal received money from the CAP, which obviously is incorrect or an outright lie depending on how you frame his view. So in essence, the previous CBA did not help Montreal and the current one is far worse in terms of siphoning profits from Gillett and his companies.
Since Montreal can’t sign free agents for a variety of reasons, what’s the point of this cost certainty other than allowing GEG to pile up profits?
by Exit716 on May 31, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know the details either but I’ve heard Boivin mention that when he got hired as the Canadiens President (1999), the team was bleeding cash and there were discussions of relocation. In that interview he indicated the CDN$ as one of the main issues.
One could also assume the Houle era (or the Dark Ages, as I call it), worked well in driving fans away from the team. The kind of brand power the team has now vs what it had in the late 90’s (jerseys sold, little stupid flags on cars, all the other overpriced Habs crap you can get everywhere, etc) is not comparable.
Gillet and his crew have somehow found a way to publicize and bring this team back in the good graces of the population – despite continued mitigated on-ice results (albeit up-trending, IMO)
by Habs on May 31, 2009 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who was saying there should have only been two Canadian teams? Anyone? Were their losses remotely close to what we’re seeing in places like Phoenix now? Were they entirely due to the Canadian dollar (and not with issues such as TV ratings, fan base, merchandise sales, etc.)?
Also, name a Canadian city that had a building that was half empty. It’s all exaggerated and playing loose with the truth in the hopes that the American media picks up on those soundbites and applies the situation teams like Edmonton faced with what’s happening now across the league.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on May 31, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just looking at attandance from 10 years ago...
And it isn’t that bad in the other 4 Canadian cities. For instance, 10 years ago in the 1998-99 season, the league avg was 16,311. Calgary was at 16,202, Edmonton was at 16,251, Ottawa was at 17,219, and Vancouver was at 15,803. So I have to say that the statement that 10 years ago these cities were playing to 1/2 – 2/3 of the buildings empty is a gross exaggeration. And when you compare those numbers to Tampa, Carolina, the Kings, the Pens, and my Islanders from that year, those number a great.
got these numbers from http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/index.php/site/comments/nhl_average_attendance_since_1989_90/
by DanNOLA on May 31, 2009 11:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That is pretty selective, IMO. If one wants to be selective, one can point out that in 1999-00, VAN was at 14,642. In 1995-96, EDM was at 12,335. OTT was at 13.245 a year later. CAL got as low as 15.322.
Note also that those are averages of distributed tickets, so it almost goes without saying that if those numbers are reported for US teams, the Canadian Hockey Fan Community says with mostly one voice “Ah, those numbers were inflated by 2-3k!!”. As well, one can infer that the numbers were skewed higher by well-above-average attendances for Canadian team visits, so it can be likewise inferred that there were many nights in those times when the buildings were half-filled or 2/3 filled.
by Gerald on May 31, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who’s to say that those low Canadian numbers weren’t inflated by giveaways too? I don’t think struggling Canadian owners are any less prone to the tactic of getting people in the door however they can and trying to profit off concessions and merchandise sales.
Just remember, though: when Canadians don’t pay to see crap teams, they’re savvy fans. When Americans don’t pay to see crap teams, they’re a bunch of inbred idiot rednecks who’ll never appreciate this great game and should never have been offered the chance.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
by JoshCVT on May 31, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing Gerald's fondness for semantic correctness
He should probably re-read both Bettman’s and DanNOLA’s statements.
2/3 full is not the same as 2/3 empty.
Gerald, you constantly insist on seeing hard facts before making conclusions, yet seem more than willing to infer that there were many nights when a building was half-full.
You are willing enough to pour over legal transcripts, but if you could point to a single boxscore with attendance of 9,000 (much less 6,000) I will gladly move over to your “everything Canadians say is wrong” side of this argument. That’s more than fair, I think – to concede the point to you about Bettman’s broad statement based upon ONE SINGLE example.
Gerald, your contributions to these discussions are invaluable, but if you are unwilling to concede your self-loathing Canadian opinion on even this issue – that Bettman is full of shit to suggest half empty and two-thirds empty buildings – then you do your credibility no favours.
I am willing to chalk this up to your optimism and Bettman’s pessimism, where he sees the rink 2/3 empty, and you see his statement as 2/3 full.
You have chastised many for statements like “so it goes without saying” and “one can infer” and “so it can be likewise inferred” when they are making a claim that casts American teams in a bad light. Do me a solid and take a break from shitting on the Canadian Hockey Fan Community on this one issue. Tomorrow you can go back to telling me how stupid I am for believing that a Hamilton hockey team would prosper more than a team in Albequerque or El Paso.
Bettman is full of shit. You would do better to restrict your defense of his statements to the more ambiguously bullshit among them.
by TD O'Dell on May 31, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too many loopholes
I mistakenly gave Gerald a lot of outs. Now his response will centre on the “self-loathing” or “everything Canadians say is wrong” aspect of my rant, while deftly deflecting any of the meat of the argument.
My bad.
OK, you win this one Gerald, but I’ll be baaaaaaaaack!
by TD O'Dell on May 31, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To finish on that point, if it were suggested that CDN arenas were 2/3 empty, I would have taken issue with such a statement. 2/3 full at various times, though, is an eminently supportable proposition.
It’s a shame that you feel that my position can be reduced to "everything Canadians say is wrong". Evidently I have not made it sufficiently clear. I am against two things: people who feel they are superior fans to others based on their place of birth and/or duration of fandom, and the willingness to accept things due to a sheep-like mentality of “everyone knows …”. It puzzles me why those two principles would be so problematic to you or anyone else.
by Gerald on May 31, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it more than a little amusing that someone would direct a statement of “semantic correctness” at me in a thread designed to pick apart a Bettman statement and a series of off-the-cuff responses to media questions. In fact, the more I think about it the more I find it outright hilarious.
I can see where you would infer that he was saying that, by saying “the buildings in all the other places were two thirds to half empty”, Bettman was saying that the arenas were two-thirds empty to half-empty". I won’t get into a grammatical argument with you, but if someone says that statement to me I would understand that it would mean two-thirds full to half empty. It makes more sense to me that way. In fact, in fairness to your point about my inattentiveness, I had not even considered that as an interpretation, so you are correct that I did not perceive that point. I would not call anyone wrong who interpreted it the other way, but I would point out that Bettman has raised this point before, and he has never suggested that CDN arenas were two thirds empty, but he has stated they were two thirds full. I feel pretty confident that Then again, one has to consider the fact that he is short, a New Yawwwk lawyer and looks like a certain muppet, so there you go.
The difference between my inferences, TD, and the inferences of others is that mine are mathematically based (in case you didn’t know the difference). Unless a non sell-out attendance average is derived from every single non sell-out attendance being EXACTLY the same, it can be mathematically inferred that there are both figures above that average and figures below that average. I trust you would concede that point.
Admittedly my point about CDN team opponents drawing better in other CDN arenas is a supposition. Shall I take it that you dispute that notion, or are you just being disagreeable for its own sake?
by Gerald on May 31, 2009 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for going easy on me
are you just being disagreeable for its own sake?
Love that closing line.
There are plenty of things you say that I disagree with. Even more so that I agree with. But for you to call anyone else out as a contrarian has got to be funny to not only myself, here.
Yes, I directed my semantic correctness at you. It may or may not have been intended to insult, but the fact remains that you are a fan of semantics. The fact that you find this to be “downright hilarious” simply proves the point. People who aren’t fans would not find it so amusing.
I do concede that an average attendance is derived from totals that are above and below the mean. I simply question whether the variance would be as great as Bettman (and you) would claim.
Your own admittedly selective example of Edmonton getting 12,000 fans that one year does not suggest to me that they had 9000 one night and 15,000 the next. Maybe the worst game of the year, during a blizzard, drew only 10,000. It was the characterization of a mythical period in time, when Canadian rinks were 2/3 empty to half-empty, that I found to be full of shit.
I’m sure Bettman knows that buildings were never 2/3 empty. But those were the words he chose. Precisely:
“The buildings in all the other places were two-thirds to half empty”
Now furthering my assertion that you are a fan of semantics, you would argue that in your opinion this lawyer whose livelihood comes from carefully crafting his words, must have meant to say 2/3 full. I would argue that his choice of words were intentional and designed and not at all “off the cuff”. I read his statement from left to right because I don’t read Chinese. If he had no intention of smearing, his words might have been “half full to 2/3 full”. You never hear a player like Datsyuk say he is 66% to 50% ready to return. I find it hard to believe that Dats is a better communicator in English than Bettman.
I do not disagree with any of your suppositions, but I do question the degree to which those theories are drawn out. Of course CDN opponents draw better. I simply suppose that the high-end and low-end are not as far apart as you might think.
I have no knowledge at all about standard deviations or such stuff, but it seems statistically improbable for anyone to conclude that a 12,000 average comes from many 9000-fan games and many 15,000-fan games. I took it one step further and wagered that not a single boxscore could be found, showing an attendance of 9000 in a building that houses 18,000.
Much like I did on my first day in prison, I walked in here today and picked you out to suckerpunch. If it works, nobody here will mess with me. If it doesn’t, you’ll be able to use your considerable influence to verbally rape me for the rest of my days. I will never be able to win an argument with you, so I thank you for your restraint and your generosity in granting me a few points.
Your position is far more sophisticated than “everything Canadians say is wrong”, but if there were a contest to determine who denies harboring a less-than-latent anti-Canadian bias in their rhetoric, I’d say that you could give Bettman himself a run for his money. Not once have I heard you say that Ontario would make for a better market than Phoenix. Not in any respect, whatsoever. I guess I just don’t get that.
I see lots of evidence to support that conclusion, but you refute all of it by saying that there is no hard evidence, and therefore none of it is admissable. It’s one thing to play the Devil’s advocate, but sometimes I wonder if Beelzebub doesn’t have you on retainer.
by TD O'Dell on May 31, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t waste your time with “Gerald”, TD. I came across this exchange between the two of you and was curious about “Gerald” because of his style as much as the content of his posts, so I looked back at his other posts right back to October of last year. He’s never been wrong as far as I can see. I wonder about someone who claims to be a lawyer (and not just any lawyer — a “billion dollar” lawyer) spending so much time and effort commenting on a hockey blog. Hey, everyone has hobbies, right? The thing is that “Gerald” never has much to say about his favourite team(s) or player(s) or how much he enjoys watching the games or his own background in sports. He does have a lot to say about Gary Bettman though, and about Canadians and Americans. I think he has a fantasy about being American and working for Gary Bettman. There doesn’t seem to be any instance in “Gerald’s” vast amount of comments on FTR or his one comment on Five For Howling where he has anything critical to say about Mr. Bettman. On the other hand, “Gerald” never says anything complimentary about Jim Balsillie. I’m not surprised that James Mirtle has had to chastise “Gerald” more than once for inappropriate comments. If “Gerald” really is a lawyer in Ontario he should be concerned that someone might ask the Law Society Of Upper Canada to contact James about him. Not very appropriate behaviour for a lawyer, IMO. But then, maybe “Gerald” isn’t a lawyer. Anyone can call himself anything he wants on an internet blog after all. I know, because I’m Gary Bettman’s evil twin. Just ask me!
by Gary Bettman's Evil Twin on Jun 2, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I found it amusing that he denied that the Montreal franchise would be moving.
by The Falconer on May 31, 2009 12:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It would be even funnier
If Balsillie emerged at the last minute and purchased Montreal.
by Exit716 on May 31, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great.
Now I won’t be able to sleep at night.
If that happened Quebec would separate.
"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov
by PRC on May 31, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you rather have Celine Dion? :)
At least he wouldn’t have to move the Canadiens to make a profit.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on May 31, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somehow or another I don’t think a bankruptcy filing would fly long with the Montreal Canadiens, in light of their relative financial success. I wouldn’t mind JB as the Habs owner, but I highly doubt he’d be able to move them… and I don’t think he’s willing to pay what Gillet’s asking.
by Habs on May 31, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, no one’s moving the Habs, ever. That’d be insanity.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on May 31, 2009 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My favourite quote
Q. What is your view on a second team in Toronto, and that’s not tied to the Coyote situation, but as a separate matter.
COMMISSIONER BETTMAN: You know, it’s not something that we’ve studied.
by TD O'Dell on May 31, 2009 5:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Parsing
Maybe The Midget meant “two-thirds full to half empty.”
There was a brief period before the Marc Crawford era, I believe, when the Canucks were playing to a half-empty building.
The Flames also struggled to sell tickets in the 90s when they missed the playoffs about 8 straight years, going so far as to have Lanny McDonald call season-ticketers personally to beg them to renew.
The Oilers’ attendance dipped badly for a time, after The Genius had run the team into the ground; owner Peter Pocklington, no longer getting handouts from the Conservative government, nearly sold the team to a guy who may or may not have had a bank account.
But attendance bounced back with very little playoff success to prompt it. I’d wager that TV ratings never flagged. And Unitarianism never supplanted hockey as Canada’s official religion.
But even if all 16,000 hockey fans in the metro-Phoenix area attend all 82 games, there is no wider audience for our sport there. TV ratings are non-measurable they’re so low. Same story goes for teams in the hick belt.
Southern expansion was no better an idea for the NHL than it was for the CFL.
Forget relocation. Stop propping up dying teams and their bankrupt owners. Contract to 20-24 teams.
The Evil Empire’s busted economy will take care of things naturally, regardless of what the New York Lawyer says.
by garth the hoser on May 31, 2009 7:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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