From The Rink: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Network Message: 50% Off: CBS/SB Nation Fantasy Baseball

What is an NHL team in Hamilton worth?

For the first time, I think there is a good chance Balsillie will be successful. The judge has put Bettman in a box. He’s going to have to attach a price to the legitimate NHL interest in the Ontario market. Instead of arguing about whether Balsillie has the right to buy and relocate the team, they will be arguing about how much Balsillie has to pay to acquire a right the NHL doesn’t want to sell.

– Tom Benjamin

I've been pretty skeptical from the beginning that Jim Balsilie's bid for the Coyotes was going to result in a team in Hamilton at any point in the near future, but the judge in this case appears to have been able to cut through a lot of the B.S. and see some value in what's on the table.

Tom's absolutely right: Regardless of the headlines, yesterday was a big win for the Balsillie camp, even if this is far from over, as it's made this decision more about what he's willing to pay to move the Coyotes rather than the league having absolute control over striking down a move. Judge Redfield Baum tossed out Bettman's "expressions of interest" for what they were (i.e. meaningless), dressed down pretty much every lawyer who addressed him and has the foresight to see that keeping this franchise in Phoenix isn't nearly as simple as the league is making it out to be.

So much for this being a "sham bankruptcy."

Star-divide

I liked this back-and-forth from the trial as well, as per Kevin McGran at the Toronto Star:

NHL lawyer Tony Clark was next, left to explain why the Quebec Nordiques could be sold and moved in less than a month while insisting that approving Balsillie and relocating the Coyotes could take months because of the requirements of its constitution.

"The NHL doesn't always follow what's in the constitution, does it?" asked the judge.

Clark explained that the Quebec to Colorado move got a waiver due to "extraordinary" circumstances.

"Are these extraordinary circumstances?" asked the judge.

"We'll find out," said Clark.

"This team has lost something along the lines of $300 million in 12 years. How extraordinary does it have to get?" said the judge.

Some have also noted that what's needed to bail out the Coyotes are some major concessions in the lease from the City of Glendale, but I imagine that what the judge wonders is why such breaks weren't first offered to Jerry Moyes? How appropriate is it that he foots the bill for years only to have the next ownership group take over a more valuable property by buying in at a discount? Does that make any sense?

In any event, this talk of a relocation fee has certainly made waves here in Toronto, where the media are speculating just what figure the NHL will come up with and how those funds would potentially be doled out. I personally don't think it's unreasonable for the league to look for at least $150-million for the rights to the Southern Ontario market, and much of that should be offered to the Maple Leafs and Sabres as an indemnity.

The issue, if you're an owner of one of the other 27 teams not involved here (a few of whom we hear from here), is that an expansion team into Hamilton or Toronto would potentially be worth $10-million per team (after a payout to the Leafs and Sabres), and a deal like this, where the extra cash goes to Moyes, would see them only pocket what's left of the relocation fee (maybe $2-million each).

At this point, however, you wonder how much of a stomach owners will have for a protracted battle if Balsillie comes up with the cash. (If he walks away, this is all moot.)

It'll be pretty interesting to see if the two sides can even agree on a relocation fee at all, or if the judge has to wade in here. This could be a major turning point in the case – or just another turn in the road – and could be the subject of major litigation in the future.

The fastest way for the NHL to make this all go away would be to offer up an expansion franchise in Southern Ontario tomorrow, open the bidding to everyone and welcome Balsillie onboard if he wins the auction.

But I'm not holding my breath on that one.

0 recs  |  Comment 52 comments  |  Add comment |

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from From The Rink

How NHL Rule Changes Are Made

Mar 2010 by Mike Chen - 6 comments

Comments

Display:

The fastest way for the NHL to make this all go away would be to offer up an expansion franchise in Southern Ontario tomorrow, open the bidding to everyone and welcome Balsillie onboard if he wins the auction.

Well, you’d still be left with the problem of a lame-duck franchise in Arizona.

(Of course, I suppose you could fold the Coyotes and have another expansion draft… I’m not sure that’s less of a headache.)

"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov

by PRC on Jun 10, 2009 2:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

OR you could get competent management.

Support Your Local Coyotes Blog! -
Five For Howling

by Travis Hair on Jun 10, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In that scenario, the NHL gets what it wants. It can play around with the Coyotes ownership situation however it sees fit, screw Moyes over, sell it at a discount and ship the team to Las Vegas in a year or two if need be.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They aren’t shipping the team to Vegas either. Nice RUmors there, but it’s not happening.

Support Your Local Coyotes Blog! -
Five For Howling

by Travis Hair on Jun 10, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not creating a rumour. Relocation elsewhere is a highly plausible scenario should the team prove insolvent in the future.

Why is there no single bid to keep the team in Phoenix at this point? What are these potential ownership groups waiting for?

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It sounds like no matter what the NHL chooses, Balsillie has effectively outmaneuvered them (based on the inferences drawn from the judge’s comments). I am sure no matter what happens, Bettman will declare this a win.

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Jun 10, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course, the owners would probably want to collect on expansion fees for a Vegas franchise, too…

"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov

by PRC on Jun 10, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess they’ll have to settle for a relocation fee.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is Baum suggesting the relocation fee based on the NHL’s right to locate its teams, or because the Balsillie bid wants to move to a location already served by the league?

"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov

by PRC on Jun 10, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The first one. The second issue could bring up antitrust concerns.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forbes put the value of the Leafs at $450M, in 2008. Balsillie offered $212M for the rights to buy the Coyotes. The NHL could make the case that another team in the GTA would probably be worth 75% – 90% of the value of the Leafs – and that would place the team value at $335M to $405M. Why not make the relocation fee about $200M, Pay Toronto and Buffalo $25M a pop, and the remaining 28 teams divide up the remainder, everyone getting about $6M.

by john ogrodnick on Jun 10, 2009 3:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, pay Buffalo x amount of dollars now when Golisano will just use it to orchestrate political coups and buy Monica Seles jewelry instead of improving the team.

rolls eyes

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 10, 2009 3:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey, Seles is a pretty good get for that ol’ fella.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe the extra money can be used to buy a good defenseman. Oh wait… none of the front office was fired this year.

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Jun 10, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All joking aside, I don’t know how much money would have to go to Buffalo to offset long-term effects of a team in Hamilton. $25 million seems like a reasonable amount though. Of course, that’s without knowing any of the specifics.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 10, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s a tough question. I think a Hamilton team would hurt Buffalo some, but not devastatingly so. Maybe a few million a season?

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is the 15% of tickets sold across the border...

…the margin by which the Sabres survive in a shrinking U.S. city?

And how much does that drop with a Hamilton franchise present that doesn’t require the ever-increasing pain in the ass of transiting the U.S. border?

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 10, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

(1) Many of the Sabres Canadian fans live closer to Buffalo than Hamilton.
(2) Tickets for the Hamilton team would be much higher priced than those in Buffalo.

In other words, the teams would have different markets. A Hamilton team doesn’t suddenly mean no Canadians are going to Sabres games. (And more would go to games between the two clubs.)

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two very good points.

Not to mention every Hamilton game would immediately be placed onto the “triple black diamond” (or whatever they’re calling it this year) tier of their variable pricing, which may recoup a little cost itself.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 10, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A team in Hamilton should help Buffalo long term

I’ve written more in depth about this before, but the short version is that a team in hamilton is not stealing that many Sabres fans, but rather canadians who come into town to chear for the visiting team. Currently 13% of Buffalo’s games are against teams from Canada. With the addition of a team in Hamilton that would increase to 16%, and would likely also result in a similar increase in revenue.

For now I think the Sabres are just positioning themselves to get a large portion of the relocation fee…

by Ebscer on Jun 11, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great points… totally agree. The “what about Buffalo?” brigade honestly hasn’t looked closely enough at what would happen there.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 11, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems reasonable — I don’t know where the “fall line” for travel convenience one way or the other lies between Hamilton and Buffalo, or the population density on either side of that line. If most of that 15% lies east of the line anyway, the Sabres threat isn’t as big a deal.

Here’s a question: which would the Sabres prefer — having Hamilton in the division and getting the extra revenue from three games at super-premium prices, or keeping Hamilton in the Western Conference and having a more distinctive product?

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 10, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably the Hamilton in-division option.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 10, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well the fans really seemed to reject the “triple black diamond” prices this year but they paid for them in years past so I am willing to think they would want the income and them in the division (plus it would cut down on travel costs if a team got kicked out to insert Hamilton in).

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Jun 10, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They’ll definitely be competing for the same Niagra area fanbase. It could be a significant one… not as much if the Bills leave, though, and the Sabres are the only show in town.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 10, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, how many Buffalo residents are on the wait list for partial or full season tickets? If the answer still is “a lot”, then I don’t think the move is going to hurt the franchise that much. Maybe its $25 but I suspect it really could be less.

The real question is, what is the “ok, want a franchise, give me this much FU money” number Bettman comes up and whether Balsillie bites.

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Jun 10, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The number was 6,000 or so from the numbers I can find as of last year. I know they’re planning on taking that wait list down a little bit….

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/94_of_Sabres_season_ticket_holders_renew_20090511

the organization will make available between 500 and 700 additional season tickets this year for members of their Blue & Gold Club.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 10, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those waiting lists are a mirage. The numbers don’t mean squat.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 10, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A think a more appropriate measure of the value of this potential team would be to compare/ contrast the relative values of the Rangers ($411 million according to Forbes) and the Islanders ($154 million). The Hamilton franchise would be more like the Islanders – they’ll always be second class citizens when it comes to fans, advertisers, corporate partners, TV deals, etc. How many national games do you really think Hamilton will get on HNIC?

by cferneyh on Jun 10, 2009 3:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Give TSN games on Saturday nights and the problem is solved. They’d certainly draw more than the Coyotes’ 7000 viewers.

"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov

by PRC on Jun 10, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I’m sure CBC’s deal with the NHL totally allows TSN to show games on Saturday nights.

by cferneyh on Jun 10, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I looked it up and you’re right – the CBC has exclusive rights to Canadian broadcasts of NHL games on Saturday nights until 2014.

That said, they can still schedule their games for any other day of the week – give Fridays to the Blackberries.

"Without good hard work, it is impossible to reach the pinnacle of success." - Anatoli Tarasov

by PRC on Jun 10, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the money they are paying, you would hope they had exclusive rights (although they get the short end of the stick vis a vis NBC come playoff time).

The population of Pominville keeps rising!

by Blackcapricorn on Jun 10, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That said, they can still schedule their games for any other day of the week – give Fridays to the Blackberries.

I think you just gave Balsillie’s solution right there: Have the CBC come up with a way to broadcast the Hamilton games to people’s Blackberry.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 10, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Forbes valuations have a lot of voodoo in them and they have never disclosed their methodology. A study of their valuations vs real transactions showed they often understatethe value of a franchise significantly. The Cubs, for instance, changed hands at about 10% more than the 2008 Forbes valuation. And that was one of their closer estimates.

Imo, the way an investment banker would approach this is by projecting discounted cash flow over a period of time. That would require access to the internal financials of comparable teams which are, of course, not public knowledge.

by Big Picture Guy on Jun 10, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think either side would accept a guesstimate as to what a reasonable relocation fee is. Obviously, the NHL is going to want to set it very high (ie, transform the “expansion fee” into a “relocation fee”) , and PSE would want it to be very low. Sounds like a perfect thing for the judge to order to mediation. Though, if I am Basillie, and the NHL’s offer was anything reasonable and affordable, I would jump on it. The fact that there is even this discussion going on is a win for Basillie. And this has the potential to drag the process out (NHL gets its experts, Basillie gets its experts, the experts come together and hire an “independent” expert).

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Jun 10, 2009 3:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The back-and-forth
I liked this back-and-forth from the trial as well…

I love it, easily the best part of this whole experience: The judge gets to ask Bettman (and team) the logical questions that reporters ask, except now Bettman has to answer them — and if he answers with B.S., the judge gets to call him on it. Ahhaha, a courtroom can get you that way.

Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.

by Dominik on Jun 10, 2009 3:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Clark explained that the Quebec to Colorado move got a waiver due to “extraordinary” circumstances.

“Are these extraordinary circumstances?” asked the judge.

“We’ll find out,” said Clark.

I don’t see any BS answers in there.

I get the feeling that Bettman and Co are giving out the same response when the media asks the question. Only now the judge can ask the follow up questions everyone yells at their tvs

by Hansmoleman on Jun 10, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course you are forgetting the NHL will probably appeal if the judges ruling goes against them, and then they have an appeal after that to the Supreme Court in hopes they take the case after the original appeal.

All of that might push this to the point where JB can’t wait and just walks away.

by jkrdevil on Jun 10, 2009 4:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the appeal is widely expected at this point and not worth raising every time we discuss the specifics of the case. The way the appeal doesn’t come into play is if the other owners decide they want Balsillie’s money.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you compare the revenues the Coyotes had (according to Forbes) and increase it to something in the range of where Calgary/Ottawa were and Montreal/Toronto were, the salary cap/floor would not increase by much more than 2%. Pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things where teams are routinely experiencing revenue growth (Chicago) and contraction (Colorado).

by Resolute on Jun 11, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Phoenix toilet...

Nice.

I guess to continue the analogy Hamilton and Balsillie want to fish out the enormous turd and mount it on their mantle…?

You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.

by zyllyx on Jun 10, 2009 6:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The Yotes should continue the trend of firing head coaches by firing their $8M dollar man in Gretzky. They would save money and improve their chances of making the playoffs right away (in PHX or Hamilton). If Tippett is not good enough for Dallas, why would Gretzky be fine for Phoenix?

by Fred Poulin on Jun 10, 2009 8:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Tough to fire one of your minority owners.

That contract Gretzky has appears to be pretty insane … I wonder if they even can fire him without paying huge penalties.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The more the internals of the Coyotes franchise are revealed, the more I’m convinced a business this badly-run would have failed anywhere, traditional markets included — like the Minnesota North Stars and the NBA’s Charlotte Hornets did. The Gretzky contract, the other completely out-of-whack costs, the lease that doesn’t give the club revenues it creates like concessions, and bad results on the ice — the only difference in a higher-visibility market would have been a fan revolt and anger at the owner responsible, rather than too few fans showing up in the first place.

Basically, everything from the Glendale arena deal forward has been a cavalcade of failure for this club. And very little of it is actually the market’s fault.

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 10, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basically, everything from the Glendale arena deal forward has been a cavalcade of failure for this club. And very little of it is actually the market’s fault.

And yet a large number of Canadians will still blame the market regardless.

I has good practice. Mike Grier keep shooting puck at me, and my confidence boosted very more. - "Evgeni Nabokov"

by Nael M. on Jun 10, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the Glendale market is a disaster. The Phoenix market as a whole might have been better if the team wasn’t stuck on the wrong side of the MSA.

by Resolute on Jun 11, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a disaster at their last rink, too.

It’s a major issue that there simply aren’t enough well moneyed and competent people to own as many teams as exist in the NHL. A large percentage of the league’s teams also lose money, and while it’s easy to point to the Coyotes as the worst case, even under ideal management conditions I have a hard time figuring how they’d turn a profit. This isn’t a case of $10-million or so in waste – the team’s losing $30-million plus a season!

Some of this is ownership and management issues, there’s no question, but that’s not all that’s going on here.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On a side note

Gretzky has really been associated with some “colourful” characters in his pro career. Nelson Skalbania, Peter Pocklington, Bruce McNall. Isn’t he basically being compensated on the basis of his status within the game?

by Exit716 on Jun 11, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no THAT contract is something Id like to see.

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Jun 11, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if anything

this whole circus around this bankruptcy has been a fiasco and proves that pheonix is not a market the nhl can succeed in. yes this mangament group could have made a water vendor in the desert fail but when you look at the tv ratings, its sad. npr has better ratings in the south the the coyotes had in pheonix. get it over with, move this team somewhere it can succeed.

" I AM CAPATIN CHAOS, and this is my trusty Sidekick cato. Say hello Cato"
Dom Deluise 1933-2009, Cannonball run

by oldtimehockey09 on Jun 11, 2009 1:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs


User Tools

Welcome to SBN's blog on all things hockey

Start posting on From The Rink »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Ice Edge Holdings? I don`t think so!
Dave_hockey_pic_small
My Olympic Hockey Tournament Game Over Ramblings
Gary_bettman_bad_dreams_small
2010 U.S. v Canada = 1980 U.S. v Soviet Union? Why It Doesn't, and Why It Does
Small
Burke and a premeptive whine
Small
Ice edge out?
One_lindsay05_small
Getzlaf injured; Olympics in question?
Small
Lightning sale imminent-what about PHX?
Small
Dave Tippett for the Jack Adams award!
Small
Raffle
Small
Collective Intelligence or Popular Delusions:Visualizing NHL Trade, Award Rumors

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Blog extras


Bloggers-in-chief

Awkwardmarleau_small Mike Chen

Editors

Penguins_cup_08__small FrankD

Canes-country-logo_small Bob Harwood Waeghe

Cc_cory_small Cory Lavalette

Gabby_small Joe Fortunato

Moderator(s)

Calvin_small PPP

643c0d9c_small saskhab