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How would a Hamilton team affect the salary cap?

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There's been an awful lot of speculation when it comes to a potential Coyotes-to-Hamilton relocation, and one of the things we've heard talked about is the fact the salary cap would — as a result of moving the lowest revenue team into Southern Ontario — jump considerably.

But would it? How much of a difference could one relocation, no matter how extreme, even make? Enough to hurt teams on the low end, the ones struggling to hit the floor?

Probably not.

Given some of the revenue figures that have come out during the bankruptcy proceedings in Phoenix, we know pretty well what little cash the club is generating of the league's $2.6-billion annual haul. Minus revenue sharing handouts, the Coyotes were planning to take in about $55-million, the lowest total in the league.

By my count, a team in Hamilton should easily be in the black given the demand for tickets, which would mean revenues of at least $35- or $40-million more than what the Coyotes were making in Phoenix. They could be far higher in the best circumstances or lower in the worst, but $95-million in revenues would mean this theoretical new club would be near the top 10 revenue generating teams and about in line with the likes of the Flames, Flyers and Wild.

Gerald Carpenter, a local lawyer and a regular commenter around these parts, calculated my modest estimate of $40-million in new revenue would affect the cap like so:

Assuming all else is equal, the players' share is (approximately) 56.5% of that $40-million, or (approximately) $22.6-million. That would amount to a cap hit of $22.6-million divided by 30 teams, or (approximately) $750,000. Not enough to make the NHL want to avoid Hamilton in order to avoid raising the cap (a silly notion anyway).

Agreed.

So, phrased like that, a potential rise in the cap really doesn't seem to matter. Even if we presume the Hamilton franchise would generate $60-million more than the Coyotes, likely making them the fourth-most profitable franchise in the league, it would only make for an approximately $1.1-million rise in the cap. 

As for how having a club like Phoenix replaced by a stronger one would affect revenue sharing, Carpenter estimates the results as so:

The revenue-sharing minimum would go up by 4.5% of that $40-million, or $1.8-million. It would place [the Hamilton team] probably in the lower tier of the top 10, possibly. Toronto, Montreal and the Rangers would still be far ahead of the pack, so I would guess it would affect them little if any, since it becomes proportional among the contributors when the ordering of teams is done and they are miles ahead of the rest [in terms of revenues].

In other words, even if Hamilton was extremely successful and generating more than $100-million in revenue a season, the big three would still be paying the bulk of the revenue sharing.

Where teams may benefit is on the low end of the equation, as without Phoenix draining the pot at the bottom, another bubble team would be added to the list of clubs eligible for revenue-sharing funds. I'm speculating here, but based on their current situations, teams potentially eligible for revenue sharing and likely in that situation include Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Colorado and St. Louis.

These are all really just rough estimates, as there's no way to know exactly how profitable another team in Southern Ontario would be. That said, it's highly unlikely a Hamilton franchise alone could dramatically skew the salary cap or revenue sharing calculations.

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Outside of the Phoenix situation, hasn’t the big talk been the cap going down due to the economy? Maybe this should be looked at as a slowing of the decline that a couple teams may need.

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by Original Six on Jun 12, 2009 2:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually

That’s not as likely (or severe) as once thought as far as I know.

The cap (according to published reports) is expected to go down a million or two next season IF the NHLPA doesn’t exercise its 5% addition, otherwise it will be right about the same for 09-10.

For 10-11 though, it depends on how heavily the NHL is hit with gate/sponsorship loss with the economy. However, with some people saying it’s already bottoming out, will the NHL dodge a bullet here? Sure, the cap may decrease a million or two, but the worst case scenario (cap down 5-6 million) won’t happen as far as I know.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 12, 2009 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Silly notion??

According to last year’s Forbes report, eighteen teams turned a profit of $2M or less. Twelve were in the red.

Sorry, but I think an additional ~$1M hit to the bottom line in perpetuity is a serious concern for bottom two thirds of the league.

by sisu on Jun 12, 2009 8:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You are assuming every team spends that extra $1 million. Also, given that this sale would send franchise values skyrocketing, the change would be a drop in the bucket as compared to the increase in value each owner will experience.

by Resolute on Jun 12, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are assuming every team spends that extra $1 million

Almost all teams will.

Also, given that this sale would send franchise values skyrocketing…

How? Sure, league-wide revenues go up, but only for Hamilton and to a far lesser extent those receiving revenue sharing.

When you buy a franchise, you’re buying a potential revenue stream. If Hamilton brings $60M more than Phoenix, everyone’s revenue stream will take a ~$1M hit (well, everyone except Phoenix/Hamilton, and those receiving revenue sharing will take a hit of something less than $1M).

If anything, other franchise values will be negatively affected by adding Hamilton’s revenue to the league – especially Toronto and Buffalo. Granted, they will be positively affected by the expansion fee replacement, etc.

by sisu on Jun 12, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea how everyone’s “revenue stream” takes a hit. I think you are confusing revenue with spending, and therefore profit and loss. And this again goes back to your assumption that every team will spend a $1 million increase in the cap. Not every team will, and frankly, if an owner losing money chooses to lose another $1 million by spending up to the cap, then that is their issue not a fault of this relocation.

History shows that your assumption on franchise values being negatively affected are wrong. While this will be a special case given that a relocation is part of Balsillie’s offer, when a team is sold, it quickly becomes a bench mark for what the rest of the leagues are worth. So long as buyers are paying greater sums for franchises, the value of all 30 teams will rise. The idea that this would negatively affect franchise values is as silly as the idea that someone in your neighbourhood demolishing a dilapidated house and building a new home would negatively affect your property values.

by Resolute on Jun 12, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And this again goes back to your assumption that every team will spend a $1 million increase in the cap.

If the perception is that they must spend the same amount as other clubs to remain competitive, and they must be competitive to be financially viable, then they will spend the extra $1M. That extra $1M turns some revenue streams from black to red.

History shows that your assumption on franchise values being negatively affected are wrong.

There is no history with a cap and linkage.

…when a team is sold, it quickly becomes a bench mark for what the rest of the leagues are worth.

It provides a benchmark, but it certainly does not affect other franchise values.

The idea that this would negatively affect franchise values is as silly as the idea that someone in your neighbourhood demolishing a dilapidated house and building a new home would negatively affect your property values.

To complete the analogy, property taxes would weirdly have to be linked to home owner income. If the guy moving in has a huge income, my property tax goes up. Property tax isn’t the best analogy, because, as you said, the extra spending is technically optional. But the pressure to ‘keep up with the Joneses’ is considerable.

by sisu on Jun 12, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paul Kelly's comments

“”http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/577218">Let’s just talk in hypotheticals. If you’ve got a franchise which is making $25 million of their own revenue a year, before league-wide revenues, that impacts all players because we get a certain percentage of revenues for salary. If that team was pulled out and substituted by a team which makes $100 (million) to $125 million a year, salaries are going up."

by sisu on Jun 12, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What’s your point? A change in revenue will result in a change in the cap and will result in a change in what players are paid. That was obvious from the start. The question is the significance of the change. And it is not significant.

by Resolute on Jun 12, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not as if there are 18 teams sitting right at the floor that will have to increase payroll. They’re already at least $1-million over it.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Analysis

One of the embarrassing parts of Balsillie’s interview with McLean (other than the ridiculous setting) was that McLean tried to paint the potential salary cap affect a team in Hamilton would have as one of the big drivers behind the opposition.

That stupid question allowed Balsillie to smarmily question why it made sense to stop a team because it was too good of an idea that would make too much money.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 12, 2009 8:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That stupid question allowed Balsillie to smarmily question why it made sense to stop a team because it was too good of an idea that would make too much money.

I was trying to figure out why bigger profits were suddenly a bad thing. :)

"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams

by Baroque on Jun 12, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly and Ron asked it like it was a serious question!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 12, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of factors involved

If Hamilton gets a team, and the league re-aligns with Hamilton as an Eastern Conference team, their revenues could potentially be up in that 100 million area. If they stay in the West, I think they’ll be a relatively middling revenue producer. Maybe I’m underestimating the number of Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton fans in Southern Ontario, but they just couldn’t charge as high of a price for games as most people think. If they get moved to the East, and somehow end up in a division with Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Buffalo, they could be a big revenue producer.

But on the flip side, in that 2nd situation, Hamilton in Buffalo’s division would slash Buffalo’s revenue substantially so part of the revenue increase generated by the move from Phoenix would be mitigated.

by Make a play Whitner on Jun 12, 2009 9:55 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hamilton in Buffalo’s division would slash Buffalo’s revenue substantially

Personally, I don’t think it matters whether Hamilton’s in division or not. It might actually HELP them if they are in the division because the Sabres can have three home games (instead of one or two) where they can put Hamilton in their “double black diamond” (as I put it the other day) variable tier and charge out the ass for tickets.

If the Sabres put the three Hamilton games and the three Toronto games in that tier, the loss in revenue will not be as much as you think.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 12, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I’m underestimating the number of Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton fans in Southern Ontario…

A lot surprisingly. Downtown Toronto is filled with Oilers or Canucks fans when they’re in town.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As someone who has regularly promoted the idea that one of the reasons why the league doesn’t want another team in Toronto or Hamilton is because it will drive up the salary cap let me add in a few thoughts.

Yes, $750,000 is not a huge amount, but if you are the Nashville Predators, that amount is the difference between making a profit and not making a profit. The same can probably be said for several other teams. $750,000 is not going to make teams suddenly not viable, but it does make a difference. Plus, if the Canadian dollar continues to rise, as many are predicting, the difference could become greater in the future. If you are one of the owners that has to subsidize your team every year to keep it operating, are you really going to be all that interested in coughing up an additional $750,000 a year?

And for those out there that will argue that they will just not spend that extra money (and spend closer to the salary floor from now on), that could be an even worse outcome as it is becoming apparent that even in the salary cap era that teams that spend money win. Pittsburgh and Detroit have spent right to the cap. The bottom 8 spending teams all missed the playoffs. So sure, if you were the owners of Nashville you could just say lets not spend that extra $750,000 but in doing so you are making your team less competitive which in turn will likely result in lower fan interest which could lead down a path of franchise failure and relocation. This may seem dramatic but honestly it isn’t all that far fetched. While Nashville has significantly improved their financial situation through cost cutting and concessions they are a few lost fans away from disaster for if their fan base shrinks at all they face the threat of losing some of their revenue sharing money and really, it is the revenue sharing money that is keeping them afloat. If the Predators lose revenue sharing they are done so anything that puts that at risk is a serious issue.

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 1:37 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But how much is the league going to have to pay into the Coyotes’ operations next season (or if not next season, in future seasons down the road when Reinsdorf or whoever realizes there are no profits to be made there)? That question hasn’t been settled. It could work out to $750,000 per team, because the Coyotes are almost certain to lose more next season than they did this past one.

by dzuunmod on Jun 12, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, which is why the league won’t subsidize the team very long. They would prefer they get moved to another small market like Kansas City or Las Vegas, neither of which are likely to have near as much revenue as a franchise in Hamilton. Ultimately the league is hoping for some kind of significant American TV revenue which will help moderate the disparity between local team revenues. They will also expand not only to fill their own pockets with expansion money but to also drive down the salary cap as revenues will get divided by 32 instead of 30 (new expansion markets like Kansas City, Las Vegas, Portland, Seattle, etc. would likely be below average revenue teams).

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But, other than Kansas City, there are no arenas. And far as we can see, owners aren’t lining up to enter the NHL these days. You need both those things in any potential expansion market. Where are they?

by dzuunmod on Jun 13, 2009 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It isn’t far fetched, but it is also a fact of life. While there might be a small blip in 2010-11, revenues are rising anyway, and so is the cap. It’s simply a matter of the Predators and the like finding ways to generate the revenue. Same as it is today. This entire argument is nothing more than a strawman.

by Resolute on Jun 12, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The salary cap has risen more than 40 per cent since it came into effect. This bump would constitute a jump of 1.3 per cent and will be combined with the fact economic factors are driving the cap down for next season.

It’s effect would be negligible and an additional team would suddenly be in the revenue sharing mix.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you are on the brink of losing your house to foreclosure, a 1.3% rise in expenses could very well be as devastating as 100%.

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I fail to see how the Hamilton franchise is the tipping point given (a) the cap’s risen $17.7-million postlockout and (b) it would mean eliminating one of the largest revenue sharing draining teams and give some of those funds to other teams.

If a $750,000 bump is going to mean the end for some franchises, they’ve got bigger problems as, post-recession, the cap’s rise will continue at a rate far higher than that.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. There are a number of franchises that I believe are in trouble. Phoenix moving to Hamilton makes those troubles larger. To make them go away there either needs to be a restructuring of the revenue sharing system (more revenue gets shared), a large TV agreement (which will help balance out revenue) or most likely expansion (which will dilute the big market revenues over 32 teams instead of 30 as well as give the struggling teams a cash infusion).

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How does expansion into big markets help the small market teams if moving a small market team to Hamilton doesn’t? The latter would have exactly the same effects, except that the cap goes up without there being one fewer teams one the bottom end taking up revenue sharing money. I have no idea how you can argue this.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 12, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don’t expand into big markets. You expand into Kansas City or Las Vegas or Portland or Seattle. These will be low market teams which will bring down the average revenue. A successful business plan for Nashville could be expand, expand and expand to push down the salary cap to the point that they can spend close to the cap and not lose money.

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This doesn’t work, either. The percentage of revenues split evenly is greater than the percentage of revenues that make up the cap floor. You will be reducing the amount of money they make faster than the amount of money they spend. That’s not a recipe for improved financial performance.

More, it is absolutely insane that the proposed method of strengthening the league is to deliberately lower revenue. If you think the big market teams are going to buy into a strategy that is all about them getting less money just to save hockey in a bunch of markets that can’t generate revenue, you’re crazy. You seem fixated on a single problem to the extent that you are prepared to make several other ones much worse in an attempt to make a little progress on the one. It’s nuts.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 13, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If a club’s ability to turn a profit is that tight (the $750,000) dollar range, it sounds more like a problem that has nothing to do with Hamilton. It’s more likely the league is either over-expanded (partially true) or, of even greater significance, that the CBA made to many concessions to the players.

Salary cap socialism is an interesting phenomenon. In the NFL it’s largely insignificant, thanks to the overwhelming amounts of money associated with American football. Football is so popular in the U.S. that it’s almost impossible not to turn a profit no matter how poorly a team plays. In the NBA there are certainly clubs that struggle at the gate, but only when they overpay lousy performers who can’t draw a crowd. There are bottom-dwellers like the Clippers who constantly turn a profit. Now, whether or not that is good for the game is a whole different matter, but it is certainly worth pointing out.

In the MLB, which doesn’t have a salary cap but does have revenue-sharing, the top spending clubs don’t necessarily always win the title or sit at the top of the league. People try to argue against this by saying ‘look at the Yankees and Red Sox,’ but the Yankees haven’t won a title in 8 years. A solid player-contract system coupled with guaranteed money means teams have to be smarter. There are countless clubs who are successful without spending a ton of money because their losses are made up by revenue sharing. Granted, you still have clubs like the Pirates who turn a profit before selling a single ticket (thanks to having a payroll less than their revenue share), but the fact that they exist is (at the end of the day) what helps other teams sell tickets and produce revenue in markets outside their own.

Sports league profitability requires a few basic components: a decent geographic spread to pull in revenue from multiple markets (but not necessarily the over-arching spread that Bettman seeks) and a workable CBA that pays players well while keeping franchises relatively stable and viable. A salary cap isn’t necessarily critical in a sport that has revenue sharing.

Parity, contrary to popular belief, is not necessary. The NBA arguably has the most aristocratic set-up (the top teams tend to generally dominate for longer periods of time while the bottom-dwellers stink for longer periods of time than in other sports), yet its bottom teams turn a profit and the league actually does better when it has a dominant dynasty everyone is clamoring to watch.

by VA Libertarian on Jun 12, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the NFL it’s largely insignificant, thanks to the overwhelming amounts of money associated with American football. Football is so popular in the U.S. that it’s almost impossible not to turn a profit no matter how poorly a team plays.

Wrong. Absolutely dead wrong. The reason it’s not possible to lose money running an NFL team is because 82% of the league’s revenues are shared equally. A team can draw flies, and make money. Arizona did for years. The Lions certainly go through stretches like that. If they had to rely solely upon the money they make themselves, they’d be out of business. Which, as I’ve said many times, would be a good thing. Any system that allows William Clay Ford to make money while producing a product so consistently dreadful is a terrible system. If owners do not suffer the consequences of their incompetence, then they will be incompetent in perpetuity. I want William Clay Ford to go bankrupt and have to sell the team to someone who can do a good job. If the league gives him a huge pile of cash just for showing up to the meetings, that’s wrong.

Granted, you still have clubs like the Pirates who turn a profit before selling a single ticket (thanks to having a payroll less than their revenue share), but the fact that they exist is (at the end of the day) what helps other teams sell tickets and produce revenue in markets outside their own.

Please explain to me how the Pirates help other teams sell tickets. How many people are there who say, “Hey, let’s go to the Cardinals game tonight, because I really want to see that Pittsburgh lineup?” Almost no one says that. They say, “Let’s go to the Cardinals game, because we always have a good time no matter who they play.” If the Pirates disappeared, and St. Louis, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, and Houston had to schedule more games with each other, they wouldn’t notice a difference; if they got to play the Cubs more often, they’d get a benefit.

Franchises that are perpetual losers are a drag on the rest of the league, unless they have something else going for them, such as the Cubs’ ability to sell tickets to an outdoor kegger that just happens to include a baseball game. Teams that are bad every year quickly become uninteresting, and don’t sell tickets. The only benefit they have for the league is that presence in a market may help with the national TV contract, but I’m skeptical even of this.

Parity, contrary to popular belief, is not necessary. The NBA arguably has the most aristocratic set-up (the top teams tend to generally dominate for longer periods of time while the bottom-dwellers stink for longer periods of time than in other sports), yet its bottom teams turn a profit and the league actually does better when it has a dominant dynasty everyone is clamoring to watch.

That’s true, but the fact that there are bad teams in completely ancillary to why it’s successful during dynasty periods. The NBA does better then despite the bad teams, not because of them. I even question whether or not the league does better in periods of dynastic teams. It does really well during periods when there are dynasties in its biggest market, like Boston, Chicago, and Los Angeles. When the dynasty is in San Antonio, it doesn’t help nearly as much.

Also, I find it amusing that I, the dutiful liberal, feel strongly that there should be a freer market system than does the libertarian.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 12, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose you never considered that fact that 30 teams can sell more tickets than 28 teams can. You also forget how many tickets are sold in Pittsburgh to watch St. Louis. You seem to think that eliminating the losers from a league would result in better revenues, but nothing could be further from the truth. First of all, you’d have fewer markets. Second, you’d have new losers. Maybe they wouldn’t be a loser every year, but profitability despite losing is a rare phenomenon in league without revenue sharing. You’d basically have to be an overall well-run franchise. You have to have winners and losers… I don’t understand how you think eliminating some losers would help the league overall – you’d just replace them with new ones and less markets.

When it comes to the NFL, you apparently didn’t read my argument. I was basically trying to say that because of the type of money that is shared league-wide (i.e. television revenue, merchandise revenue) it is hard to analyze the implications of the league’s salary cap. The NFL has more money than it knows what to do with. I didn’t say I was advocating what Ford does, I was merely saying it’s hard to analyze the impact of the salary cap in the NFL. I also made no attempt to analyze their revenue-sharing aspects. I dismissed analyzing the NFL, because, again, there is so much money it is hard to analyze.As for the technical corrections, you are speaking only of league-wide revenue, such as television contracts. In all actuality, if teams fail to sell out they are blacked out and kept from their keep of the television revenue.

Your political knowledge is also lacking. First of all, I doubt you’re actually a ‘liberal’ – America has twisted this term beyond recognition. If you ever did research on the very label you use, you’d realize that actual liberalism is very similar to libertarianism. Second, as long as the government stays out of things, it is a free market system. In a free market you have every right to make business decisions that have collectivist aspects. So long as government regulation isn’t forcing that measure, franchise owners have every right to agree or disagree with the rules of a private organization.

You also may wish to look up the difference between commentary and advocacy. I never once said I advocated the systematic aspects of the other leagues, I was merely making commentary concerning them.

Given that sports leagues are generally private entities (though it is disgusting when localities pay for facilities) they have every right to run their business as they see fit. Other businesses do this as well – putting money into less successful entities from a more successful branch of their company – and they have every right to do so if they choose. If I don’t like it, I don’t have to buy their product.

The ‘free’ market you think you’re speaking of isn’t good business. Under the system you seem to be advocating smaller markets that have either strong tradition (which helps league-wide interest) or make for a nice geographic spread (i.e. maybe they’re not large, but they’re close to a number of other small markets that would not otherwise be easily accessible) would all but disappear. Moreover, they’d also have incredible trouble competing against teams from places like New York City. The biggest thing that stops the Yankees in baseball, and aids other teams in competing, (given its absence of a cap) is revenue-sharing. Yes, it sucks that Pittsburgh does what it does, but to say Pittsburgh shouldn’t exist is non-sense. There’s no ‘one size fits all’ formula. Some teams perform well with payrolls much closer to Pittsburgh than Boston or New York, and they do so through scouting. Without revenue sharing, they might struggle to exist at all.

All I tried to say is that revenue sharing with a cap could be part of the problem (Isuch as the NHL’s CBA). I also said “A salary cap isn’t necessarily critical in a sport that has revenue sharing.” I didn’t say I advocated something one way or the other, I merely said “isn’t necessarily critical.” The NBA has a cap and some level of revenue-sharing and it seems to do okay because its CBA has struck a proper balance.

Wow.

by VA Libertarian on Jun 12, 2009 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your political knowledge is also lacking. First of all, I doubt you’re actually a ‘liberal’ – America has twisted this term beyond recognition. If you ever did research on the very label you use, you’d realize that actual liberalism is very similar to libertarianism. Second, as long as the government stays out of things, it is a free market system. In a free market you have every right to make business decisions that have collectivist aspects. So long as government regulation isn’t forcing that measure, franchise owners have every right to agree or disagree with the rules of a private organization.

That’s nice. When the government gives the leagues special exemptions from anti-trust law, they are not staying out of the way. The rest of your post makes every bit as much sense, including your insults about my political knowledge. That “liberal” at one time meant something similar to “libertarian” (though not as close as you seem to think; I suggest reading Adam Smith a bit more carefully), and, to some extent still does in Europe, the term has come to be used very differently in the US. Given that I have zero use for stupid semantic arguments, the fact that you knew perfectly well what I meant, but insisted on shooting your mouth off anyway, is pretty telling.

Given that sports leagues are generally private entities (though it is disgusting when localities pay for facilities) they have every right to run their business as they see fit. Other businesses do this as well – putting money into less successful entities from a more successful branch of their company – and they have every right to do so if they choose. If I don’t like it, I don’t have to buy their product.

That’s one hell of an “if” statement you put in parentheses. As they actually exist, sports leagues have nothing to do with being private enterprises run without special perks from the government.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 13, 2009 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NBA arguably has the most aristocratic set-up (the top teams tend to generally dominate for longer periods of time while the bottom-dwellers stink for longer periods of time than in other sports)

With one add-on to this perhaps being that because the roster only has 12 spots on it in the NBA, it’s easier to take a pretender and make them a contender with one or two player moves/draft picks (or turn a contender into a pretender). You can practically turn an entire roster over in an off-season, if you want.

by dzuunmod on Jun 13, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They absorbed a $17.7 million rise in the cap, why can’t they absorb another $750,000 rise is an odd argument because many teams haven’t increased their payrolls by $17.7 million and many teams may have already reached their breaking point. The Predators broke, got a lot of concessions from the city, and have managed to survive. The Coyotes broke, and may not survive. There are other teams who are struggling to survive.

The Nashville Predators cap hit last year was around $45.5 million. Their cap hit in 2006-07 was just shy to $40 million. In 2 years the salary cap rose 28.8% while the Predators salary cap hit rose at half that rate. In those two years they went from a 110 point team to an 88 point team. Last year they barely made the attendance targets needed to get full revenue sharing. By all accounts they are surviving, but are on the edge. There isn’t a lot of leeway there and I am sure there are other teams in similar situations. Hamilton may or may not be the tipping point, but it certainly wouldn’t help things any.

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 2:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Again, they would eliminate the largest revenue sharing draining team and potentially contribute to those funds. That would help.

The Preds performance was related directly to Leipold gutting the roster when he decided to sell.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying that if it weren’t for Leipold they would have been spending more than they are now? I don’t buy that. Liepold or not, they wouldn’t be able to keep Timonen, Hartnell, Kariya, etc. I don’t think the current ownership group has any interest in subsidizing the team so that they can have a $55 million payroll to keep a couple of those players.

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Leipold told Poile to trade all of those players to get close to the salary floor. That had a dramatic impact on the personnel the team had going forward.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But your argument only holds water if the new owners would have kept those players around by giving them big free agent contracts but there is no evidence to suggest that would have occurred. The biggest free agent they have signed since taking over the team is probably Radek Bonk so I doubt they would have had any interest in keeping Timonen at $6 million a season or Hartnell at $4.5 million a season. They just isn’t any evidence that the new owners have any interest in subsidizing the team to any great extent which forces them to have a $45 million payroll and not a $55 million payroll (which is where they would be at had they re-signed Timonen and Hartnell or Kariya).

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We’re getting off-topic here, anyway. The point is that they could have kept some of their higher salaried players and restructured their roster rather than simply dumping everyone wholesale (and likely not for top value).

Yes, teams like the Preds that don’t spend to the cap have challenges, but the $750,000 figure we’re talking about is a drop in the bucket compared to all of the salary-cap increases. The drop in the Canadian dollar negated that increase last season anyway.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 12, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you refuse to spend money to produce a good product, you shouldn’t be surprised when no one wants to buy it. Cutting to the salary floor and giving up on competing can only work in a business sense, and only if you get a large slice of everyone else’s revenues. Would another owner have kept those players? I don’t know, but if every potential owner in a given market is going to insist on paying as little on players as the will allow, that means the problem is the market.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 12, 2009 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t disagree. It is kind of a chicken and the egg problem. We need to win to draw fans but we need to spend more money on players to win but we need more fans to have more money before we can spend more on players. The problem is not every team can win and if too many teams are on the if we win we’ll make money business model there will always be problem teams.

Often what happens is an new owner comes into a new market thinking he can be more successful by investing in a bunch of players which will make them winners which will draw fans and then they will become a long term successful franchise. Problem is, hockey isn’t an individual game and it takes more than just putting a bunch of hockey players together. Tampa is a perfect example. They got new owners and last summer they came in and made a bunch of trades and signed a bunch of players and it turned out to be a total flop and then they went into salary dump mode because they really couldn’t afford those players.

Getting back to the main theme, every time the salary cap rises, for whatever reason including a franchise moving from Phoenix to Hamilton, it just makes the margin of error for these smaller market teams that much smaller.

by HockeyAnalysis on Jun 12, 2009 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This usually happens because the markets are over-saturated, don’t have a passion for the sport (in this case, hockey), and/or the owner has a bad business model. Luck’s a part of it, too.

Having grown up in Dallas, I doubt people would have cared about the Stars were they not successful almost right away. Granted, they’d still probably be around (Dallas is the 4th-largest metropolitan area in the U.S. or Canada), but they wouldn’t be a big success story by any means.

Tampa’s always had problems in years it hadn’t been successful in a while, and now that the Rays had a good year and half the Lightning’s season is during the Bucs’ season, there’s only so much sports money to go around. Also of significance is the rise of USF football and a lack of cultural attachment to the product. If a few of those factors were any different, Tampa might not be in a bad spot. Granted, if they hadn’t conducted horrible business moves (over-paying for players that didn’t go together), they also wouldn’t be in this situation and would probably be okay.

“Getting back to the main theme, every time the salary cap rises, for whatever reason including a franchise moving from Phoenix to Hamilton, it just makes the margin of error for these smaller market teams that much smaller.”

Hamilton’s success isn’t other clubs problems. They either need to improve their product, business model, or realize they’re in a bad market (it’s either over-saturated or just doesn’t care about hockey).

by VA Libertarian on Jun 12, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

About those markets that don't have a fanbase for the sport....

Although I’m going to reference MLB numbers, Tampa is a perfect example….

Tampa’s always had problems in years it hadn’t been successful in a while, and now that the Rays had a good year and half the Lightning’s season is during the Bucs’ season, there’s only so much sports money to go around.

A perfect example of a market that is fickle, and isn’t going to come to games unless the team is winning. Or possibly, only show up when the team is near or in the playoffs.

Yes, the Rays trounced the AL last year and proved that they deserved to win their division and beat everyone else for that AL title fair and square. Last week, the Phillies went to Tampa for a little “rematch” so to speak…. and what did we find out watching it on TV? We learned that the Rays, coming off an appearance in the World Series, have the 3rd worst raw attendance numbers in the AL. 6th worst in the MLB. Mind you, they are still 8 games over .500 as of today. It is a tiny little improvement over last year’s attendance at this time; but looking at all the attendance data, one number seems more important than the others: 52.6%. That is the percent of seats sold on average for Rays home games. Still 6th worst in the MLB once you sort by percent. They built the team up, they won their division and their league, and they still can’t fill the stadium much past half. My point, in the end? Sometimes winning isn’t enough to build a stable fan bases for long term success. Sometimes the “if we win we’ll make money business model” doesn’t even work. The Rays are winning, and 23,000 fans a night as the defending AL champs doesn’t seem like making money to me, not for baseball.

I’m not trying to vilify the Tampa market. But they prove that winning doesn’t sell tickets if the market doesn’t have the money to buy them or the desire to buy them, worse if the market doesn’t have either one.

( Attendance data courtesy of http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance )

by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 30, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the move has trouble written all over it
Hamilton’s success isn’t other clubs problems. They either need to improve their product, business model, or realize they’re in a bad market (it’s either over-saturated or just doesn’t care about hockey).

Point is, the market isn’t saturated right now. Buffalo is 11th in league attendance by raw numbers, with their arena filled to 99.2% capacity on average. Toronto is 2nd by numbers, with an average capacity of 102.7%. The teams are 2 hours apart by car if you count the wait at the border. That’s about the same distance as the Senators and the Canadiens, the Flyers and Capitals, and the Flyers and the Devils. None of those 3 pairings “saturate” their market because there’s just enough distance between them, and there isn’t really any significant grey area in territory that I am aware of in any of those cases. But Hamilton is really close to being right in the middle, so you only have less than an hour’s drive between teams if a third one pops up in the middle.

A 3 team market in Toronto/Hamilton/Buffalo would be close to the saturation of the Greater NYC market of the Devils/Rangers/Islanders. But there are some drastic differences. The greater NYC market, which is the #1 NHL market in the US according to TV revenue, has about 18 million residents. By contrast, the combined populations of Greater Toronto (5,550,000), the Hamilton census metropolitan area (700,000), the Niagara region of Ontario (425,000), the Buffalo–Niagara–Cattaraugus Combined Statistical Area of NY (1,250,000), and Greater Rochester(1,000,000) only add up to about 9 million people. Granted, those 9 million people are far more likely to be hockey fans than the 4.3 million people in Phoenix and even the 18 million people in the NYC metro. The Sabres and the Leafs have their attendance at comfortable levels currently; but in NY one or more of those 3 teams has been in the bottom 5 in attendance for 20 years (there was one exception, where the Devils were 8th from last and the islanders were 9th from last). In fact, the Islanders have been in the bottom 3 of attendance all but 3 years in that 20 year span. Last year, the Islander’s average arena capacity was at 84.5% and they have the smallest arena in the league; NJ’s attendance was 89.6% of capacity, or 8th worst. Yes there’s other issues involved for the Islanders like bad drafts, management problems, and a decaying arena that the town won’t replace, but if there is too much competition in your market it’s much easier for a fan to abandon you after a couple bad years and never come back. It’s bad enough that they’ve taken steps to investigate a possible move to Kansas City by scheduling a preseason game there this fall… and that’s the market the Devils started out in 35 years ago, and left after only 2 seasons to high-tail it to Colorado. So if NY can’t support 3 teams, how is a market half the size of NY is supposed to? If there isn’t enough money/desire for tickets to fill the arena’s in greater NYC, I don’t think 20,000 more NHL fans will appear for 40 games a season out of the 700,000 person population of Hamilton. A decent percentage of Sabres fans come from the Niagara region of Ontario, a lot of people cross back and forth on such a regular basis that the economies are bound together. So if they do manage to rally up enough new NHL fans to shell out for 40 additional home games in that area, then the odds are still good that it’ll end up killing one of the 3 AHL teams in the area (Toronto, Hamilton, Rochester). I know that isn’t going to come up on the NHL’s priority list, but suddenly killing an AHL club is going to hurt the big club in the long run in money and in player development. Families who want to go to a hockey game in this market have options, so there’s a lot of competition even if the majority of those 9 million residents are hockey fans.

The problems with a saturated market don’t stop at population, there’s also the major issue of TV market share. MLB’s Baltimore Orioles only successfully absorbed the move of the Nationals to DC because they own the TV network that broadcasts the National’s games. Otherwise, the hit to their TV revenue had a real threat of pulling them under, even though one club is in the AL and the other in the NL in a very high population area. Three NHL teams competing for TV revenues when the number of TV households in the area won’t change, and you can pretty much guarantee somebody is going to lose money.

I don’t feel that this is a sensible risk to take for the franchise, the NHL, or the local economy up there. I think it’s pretty much a lock that someone is going to lose money or fail completely; and in a hypothetical case it shouldn’t matter which one it’ll be, the fact that it will happen to someone should put the brakes on the move before it happens. I’d much rather see the team move to a market with a better chance of supporting it. I’d rather see the NHL return to Quebec City than this idea (I know the Nordiques left, but they have a lot of residual WHA issues, and there were some horrible draft decisions); at least in that case, you would have a government that wants the NHL back and is willing to build a new arena, a temporary arena already there for the meantime, minimal to no market share competition, you have a built in rivalry with the Habs just waiting to be resurrected, and you have a city full of Av’s fans who would love some hometown hockey to root for after 14 years [I was there last year; the majority of people seem to have kept their loyalty to the Av’s to avoid supporting the Canadiens]. Even with the Nordiques many issues and faux pas that were made in their later years, they still managed to have their arena at 95% average capacity the year they were the worst team in the league, and in their worst attendance year they were well above the Islander’s current numbers. That option has flaws, but there’s other plenty of other options, that’s just one example. I’d still rather see those odds of success than see a relatively stable market get destroyed.

by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 30, 2009 2:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Again, it’s absurd to compare the Southern Ontario hockey market and saturation with the New York metro area hockey market. There’s just no comparison to be made there.

The NHL is the No. 1 game here, by far.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jul 1, 2009 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs


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