A few more words from the Balsillie camp
I just sat in on a conference call with two representatives for Jim Balsillie, Richard Rodier and Bill Walker, and they addressed a few questions from members of the American media.
The proceedings were a little adversarial, as journalists pressed Rodier to talk about some specifics as to how they will proceed and what this deal really means for Balsillie's bid. I only took a couple notes, but I think they're worth putting out there.
As to why Rodier feels the Balsillie camp is still alive in the proceedings he said, "Whether there is anyone willing to buy the team and keep it in Glendale is an open question." Rodier added that another "open question" is whether Glendale will offer to "subsidize" the team.
So those are the openings.
(The term subsidy, which Tom Benjamin has talked about, was used a few times by Rodier and was questioned by the press on the call.)
Rodier was also asked if they would contemplate owning the team in Phoenix for the coming season.
"Playing another year in Glendale translates to incurring catastrophic losses," he said. "[Are we] committed to another year in Glendale? That's a tough question. On what terms [would we be committing]?"
He added that they had little problem keeping the team in Phoenix for a year if the NHL assumed the losses ("or profits") involved. Rodier also said his camp had not yet talked to the NHL about a relocation fee but that they would be in the future.
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From which American outlets were these journalists?
(I’m just curious because coverage of the case has been scant in places other than the Arizona Republic and a handful of other places. Even today, on the Republic’s sports page, you have to look to find anything about it.)
by dzuunmod on Jun 16, 2009 1:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bob Baum from The Associated Press has been covering this a lot. There were writers from the Republic, a local business publication and, I believe, Dow Jones who asked questions.
Not many, that’s for sure.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Jun 16, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, James. And thanks for the blog as a whole!
by dzuunmod on Jun 16, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s funny, I was wondering who “Mr. Baum” was – I couldn’t imagine that the judge was sitting in!
More fun than a stick to the face!
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by Dirk Hoag on Jun 16, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subsidy vs. "revenue enhancement"
Word choice is indeed important when talking about funds flowing from a local government to a sports team, and I think a useful line can be drawn here. In the Predators lease negotiations, they tapped what is called “but for” money, meaning money that the local government would not have access to if not for the presence of the Preds. This is as opposed to a direct subsidy, which would have funds taken directly out of government coffers and given to a private entity.
In situations like the Predators or Coyotes, the threat of relocation was/is very real, so it makes the analysis more straightforward for the local government.
My guess is that whoever operates the Coyotes will have to use just such “but for” funds to help stem the tide of red ink, rather than rely upon anything out of a general fund. Either additional ticket fees or (more likely) a more favorable split for the team of what’s already being collected.
Ultimately, the city of Glendale has a nasty choice on their hands. Support a vacant building, or support a team to keep the lights on.
More fun than a stick to the face!
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by Dirk Hoag on Jun 16, 2009 1:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dirk, if the team asks for more money than it brings in to the city directly, via parking and other revenues, it’s a subsidy. Numbers like 15-20 million from Glendale to the team have been mooted in the press, and I believe by the league itself. Are the Coyotes directly worth 15-20 million dollars a year to the Glendale bottom line? If they aren’t, you can call it whatever you want, but the net effect is the same.
by Robert Cleave on Jun 16, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, if they ask for more than they bring in for the city (going above and beyond the “but for” dollars), that’s what I’d call a subsidy under this comparison.
More fun than a stick to the face!
On the Forecheck is SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators.
by Dirk Hoag on Jun 16, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
City to be part owners?
IF the city is adding 15-20 million/year to the franchise via subsidy/revenue enhancement, etc, using the US government/GM fiasco as a precident, shouldn’t/wouldn’t the city becme part owners of the team? ; )
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by Fauxrumors on Jun 17, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent comment, Faux. That indeed could/should be something that the City could look at in their considerations. It would be subject to their legislative restriction son what they can own, of coourse, but there are also ways that the same result could legally be achieved through the appropriate contractual mechanisms without the City “owing” shares per se.
Agian, excellent thought. I will be mulling this one over.
by Gerald on Jun 17, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ultimately, the city of Glendale has a nasty choice on their hands. Support a vacant building, or support a team to keep the lights on.
And that’s going to cause the next city to look real hard at whether they should build an NHL team without extremely deep local roots a rink.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
by JoshCVT on Jun 16, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of what gets described as “but for” money really isn’t. Much of it is money that would be spent in the area anyway.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 16, 2009 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Islanders...
Wang is basically asking for an entire mini-city to be built on an already-too-crowed Long Island AND – he wants 10 years to do it… That would mean construction on rails in all the quiet little neighboring towns – for 10 years.
by MeetTheMatts.com on Jun 16, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There are “quiet little neighborhoods” left in Nassau county? LOL
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
by Fauxrumors on Jun 17, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But unless I’m mistaken Wang is providing 100% of the funding for his project, thus the City has nothing to lose and everything to gain – he’s proposing to bring plus value to the City AND pay for it.
by Habs on Jun 17, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s trying to provide the funding, but thus far is having trouble getting firm commitments from lenders – there’s some good discussion here.
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by poploser on Jun 17, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not really sure this is related.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Jun 17, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of how the press paints the Baum decision, Basillie’s camp has its foot in the door. Im surprised that they would be so adversarial at this point. If I were his camp, Id be trying to be a nice guest, rather than put my muddy feet on the tables. Rather than require the NHL to assume another year losses, I would be very “open to the idea of working out a cost-sharing arrangement” with the NHL in return for the ability to move by a future date-certain. In reality, if the NHL wants a relocation AND indemnification fee – and Basillie wants to limit his financial exposure for a year – now we’re just talking about $$$.
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by poploser on Jun 16, 2009 2:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Um...
are there any buildings in the Phoenix area other than the arena and the courthouse? Why does Rodier look like he’s been sitting in the sun for two months.
Personally, I only trust lawyers who have the pallor that comes from only the rarest of exposure to natural sunlight.
by mc79hockey on Jun 16, 2009 2:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's the frickin' desert.
You can get a suntan walking from the office door to the car. Not to mention second-degree burns from the seats in the car.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
by JoshCVT on Jun 16, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding?
Rodier and Balsillie’s whole legal team is LOVING this. Getting paid and unlimited golf? I’m surprised the dude’s skin hasn’t turned to leather already.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 16, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would the US Airways Center in downtown Phoenix be willing to give the Coyotes a better deal?
Is this even a possibility?
by Ebscer on Jun 16, 2009 2:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No.
They’d have to completely remodel that building for that to work. It’s why they were so desperate for a new arena in the first place. Along with the fact that they have a lease with the city of Glendale.
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by OdinMercer on Jun 16, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell no.
Not only is the US Airways Center completely unsuitable for hockey, it’s also run by an ownership group which could only be termed hostile to the Coyotes’ interests. Before the Glendale lease, the Coyotes were leasing UAC from the Suns and getting hosed on that nearly as badly.
Given the way the Suns have been managed recently, the LAST thing the Coyotes want to do is be involved with their ownership in any way…
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 16, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thought experiment
I wonder what would happen if Gary Bettman decided to announce that the league was expanding to Winnipeg and Hamilton for the 2010-2011 season – and then he offered PSE the Hamilton franchise with the promise to assist in negotiating the territorial fees with Toronto and Buffalo?
Imagine the possibilities. Bettman could start up a website called screwsevenweredoingeight.com, get Five for Fighting to compose an anthem titled “Kumbaya from the Klondike,” and stage a preseason barnstorming expedition where the Coyotes play both the Winnipeg and Hamilton teams, Hamilton plays Toronto and Buffalo, etc.
I wonder if Jim Balsillie would drop the Phoenix issue and take that kind of deal.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 16, 2009 3:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure we’ll ever need to contemplate such a scenario as I don’t think the NHL currently has any intention of ever putting a team in Hamilton.
Expansion’s also a bad idea given the number of teams in trouble right now. (Although that doesn’t mean it won’t happen.)
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Jun 16, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better yet
Why doesn’t the NHL use the Phoenix model and force its franchises to all charge the same ticket prices with the Coyotes being the highest one can charge.
by Exit716 on Jun 16, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great idea! LOL
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
by Fauxrumors on Jun 17, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im surprised that they would be so adversarial at this point.
You would be adversarial too if your legal strategy had just been shown to be as ill-conceived and your legal arguments as laughable as PSE’s. In his opinion Judge Baum comes pretty close to ridiculing some of their most important arguments.
I find it hilarious that Tom Benjamin is trying to pin the term “subsidy” (as in the pejorative “corporate subsidy”) on Glendale’s attempt to salvage something from the wreck of their arena investment when his home city and province is subsidizing (to the tune of at least $600 million and possibly $2.5 billion) the most rapacious, fan unfriendly corporate “sportsmen” in the history of the world, the International Olympic Commitee.
by Big Picture Guy on Jun 16, 2009 4:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
From someone who reads Tom Benjamin a lot
I think he’s not happy with the Vancouver Olympic financing either, but unfortunately I can’t find any link to support my conjecture.
by SJKel on Jun 16, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because he’s from Vancouver doesn’t mean he tows his local government’s line, either. And hey, every Canadian is subsidizing that event as wellso you might as well lump me in right with him, the Gov’t of Canada put up a ton of money for the Olympics as well.
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by saskhab on Jun 16, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tom Benjamin’s line can usually be summed up as “Americans bad, non-traditional market Americans worse, Gary Bettman the devil incarnate.” Best not to get too worked up over anything he says in this arena, because though he’s a smart guy, he can’t get past his biases.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
by JoshCVT on Jun 16, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best not to get too worked up over anything he says in this arena, because though he’s a smart guy, he can’t get past his biases.
That applies to the majority of the people commenting here, too.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Jun 16, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is such a charged topic...
There are so many ways this is being interpreted.
For instance, for some it’s a battle between the Egognome Bettman and the White Knight of Balsillie. For others it’s Canada vs. the United States. Tradition versus new markets (or “non-traditional markets”). Increased revenues versus increased exposure. Bad market or bad businessmen? Are southern-market fans lethargic or simply more discriminatory?
One thing’s for sure, there’s something for just about everyone to get pissed off about in this deal. It’d be an interesting theoretical debate in a business course at some college, for sure.
I just hope none of you have to go through what I’ve gone through – and what I’m still going through. Nobody deserves the kind of treatment fans in Phoenix are getting from all sides in this… no matter how few of us people think there are.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 16, 2009 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope none of you have to go through what I’ve gone through – and what I’m still going through. Nobody deserves the kind of treatment fans in Phoenix are getting from all sides in this… no matter how few of us people think there are.
Oh, I agree. If the league is committed to a team in Phoenix, than figure out what is needed to make it successful and do that instead of futzing around with half-measures that don’t help anyone. Or pull out completely, but don’t waffle.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Jun 17, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
by Fauxrumors on Jun 17, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good job of reading...
He’s clearly said he doesn’t think that Balsillie should be allowed to move the Coyotes.
by mc79hockey on Jun 16, 2009 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would be adversarial too if your legal strategy had just been shown to be as ill-conceived and your legal arguments as laughable as PSE’s. In his opinion Judge Baum comes pretty close to ridiculing some of their most important arguments.
That’s not how I read the decision. The most important part of the arguments is over the anti-trust implications, and Baum threw plenty of barbs in both directions. He put off making a decision, while saying both that the league is allowed to set some standards on franchise relocation, while also saying that there is a significant bar that it must clear, and that they have done nothing to demonstrate that they have cleared it.
Mostly, he punted all of the important decisions further down the road.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 16, 2009 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
every Canadian is subsidizing that event
It’s worse than that. The city of Vancouver lent an estimated 100 million to Fortress Investment Group to insure that it could fund the Olympic Village. I own shares in Fortress, bought near its low because of that bailout and other US government assisted opportunites for that company. So the citizens of Vancouver are directly subsidizing my investment in Fortress!!
Benjamin’s beef is with what he thinks is Bettman’s manipulation of the word concession. Whatever. The people of Glendale will get a public hearing before the city does anything to modify that lease:the Vancouver Sun has reported several times on the secret, closed meetings involved at every step of the Olympic process. So shining a little light in his own backyard might be a more productive activity for Benjamin than quibbling over Bettman’s choice of words.
by Big Picture Guy on Jun 16, 2009 6:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
His blog is called "Tom Benjamin's NHL Blog"
It may be more productive, but there are a lot of things more productive than writing about the NHL. Are you suggesting that James should stop writing about the NHL too, because there are things more productive for him?
by SJKel on Jun 16, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I think you’ve veered off in a strange tangent here … disagree with Benjamin all you want, but he’s not some watchdog for all things sport here. The Olympic issue is completely unrelated to what we’re talking about (who’s to say he wouldn’t also call that a subsidy anyway?).
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Jun 16, 2009 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Balsillie group is still in the game, because the Coyotes are still in bankruptcy court, which means the team still has to be auctioned, which means any bid from one of Bettman’s preferred owners cannot be a secret deal. The terms of the stalking horse offer from Bettman’s owner has to be revealed to the court. The new arena deal with Glendale, and the exact terms of the bid from the new owner will have to be revealed in the courts. And Balsillie will just outbid it. Any secret side deal about a future team transfer to Las Vegas would be very difficult for Bettman to hide, because the new lease deal with Glendale would have to reveal it.
So it is really in Bettman’s and the NHL’s best interest to do a deal with Balsillie.
by godot10 on Jun 16, 2009 6:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh my God
Richard Rodier is a dead ringer for my father. It’s uncanny. It’s just a good thing that I support Balsillie; if I didn’t, it might be evidence of an Oedipus complex.
by Peter Lynn on Jun 16, 2009 8:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For the Record
Not that it is relevant, but I was outraged when Vancouver went after the Olympics and even more outraged when the city landed the Games. I’d have written about a million posts describing the Olympic con job if I wrote a blog about that instead of writing about hockey.
Also for the record, I don’t think Balsillie should be allowed to move the team to Hamilton because that would benefit him and Moyes at the expense of Glendale taxpayers and Phoenix hockey fans. I don’t really care whether the league puts any more teams in Canada because I think the route to a stronger NHL is fewer teams, not relocated ones. I also think that if Balsillie needs an arena upgrade in Hamilton he should pay for it himself.
I do think the taxpayers and the fans of the Coyotes are going to get screwed in the end no matter what the Judge decides. Even before this mess destroyed their ability to sell tickets or sponsorships, the team did not generate anywhere near the revenues required to be successful. Now? After this? In a devastated economic climate? I’m going to be shocked if this team can be saved.
by Tom Benjamin on Jun 16, 2009 11:36 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Also for the record, I don’t think Balsillie should be allowed to move the team to Hamilton because that would benefit him and Moyes at the expense of Glendale taxpayers and Phoenix hockey fans. I don’t really care whether the league puts any more teams in Canada because I think the route to a stronger NHL is fewer teams, not relocated ones. I also think that if Balsillie needs an arena upgrade in Hamilton he should pay for it himself.
Are you suggesting that the team should be folded instead of moved? How does that not screw the Glendale taxpayers and Phoenix hockey fans? Your argument is countering itself… the team can’t be successful where it is, but shouldn’t be relocated because that’s unfair to Phoenix, yet putting it in Bankruptcy 7 and folding it is no better. So what’s the solution?
by Habs on Jun 17, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think the taxpayers and the fans of the Coyotes are going to get screwed in the end no matter what the Judge decides.
He did say that Glendale is in trouble no matter what. Move the team, fold it, throw money at it – they aren’t coming out well regardless.
"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams
by Baroque on Jun 17, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any argument that includes the phrase, “…can’t be successful…” gets automatically tuned out.
Not likely to be successful? Sure, especially if business continues as usual. Even if it doesn’t, there are four very difficult hurdles to get over in order for hockey to succeed in Phoenix and the likelihood of all of them happening is very remote.
But IF the Coyotes can get a new owner who’s not a moronic crook like Moyes… if the Coyotes can negotiate with Glendale to enhance their revenue streams and lessen the financial penalties of the lease… if they can either renegotiate Gretzky’s contract or fire him outright… and if the team can ice a competitive squad on a consistent basis… then hockey can and WILL work in the Valley.
To me, saying that ANY market in North America will never ever work for hockey sells the game of hockey very short. How can anyone go to a hockey game in person and not come away from it amazed at the athleticism, skill, and toughness? How can anyone go to an NFL game after watching hockey and not be bored silly? (True story: took my kid to a Cardinals game last season. We had to leave after a quarter and a half because she was tired of seeing 8 seconds of action followed by 30 seconds of huddling).
I don’t begrudge anyone thinking that the Coyotes’ uphill battle makes climbing Mount Everest look like a stroll up a bunny slope. But saying it’s a complete impossibility is at best biased and at worst utterly moronic. IMO.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 17, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People are making Gretzky’s salary out to be the major impediment here, but we’re talking about a franchise losing upwards of $35-million a season while drawing massive revenue sharing funds. The coach’s salary is a drop in the bucket compared to what’s going on here, as the Coyotes need to start pulling in revenues at least $35- to $40-million greater to break even.
That is Everest.
Blame Moyes all you want, but I’m not sure it can work in Glendale.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Jun 17, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Not sure it can work” is not “It will never work.” I’ll take that.
I am not making Gretzky’s salary out as THE major impediment. But it is A major impediment.
I guess I should state the bottom line – you’re not going to convince me that a series of circumstances in which Glendale can support the NHL simply does not exist. And you will NEVER convince me that the best thing for the Phoenix Coyotes is to let a rogue businessman draping himself in the Canadian flag create his own shortcut to NHL ownership by hijacking the team.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 17, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Gretzky’s coaching ability is a major impediment
by Jibblescribbits on Jun 17, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that a set of possible circumstances that would lead to the Coyotes being a success doesn’t exist. I fact, I think that there are multiple ones. I also don’t think that any of those sets of circumstances, either individually or in aggregate, are at all likely to take place. Your argument seems to be that, if everything goes right, after several more years of losing tens of millions of dollars, everything might turn out well. Great. In the meantime, you want someone to cough up those tens of millions of dollars in the hopes that they might get a payoff down the road. Of course, it’s going to have to be a hell of a payoff to ever catch up to the compounded losses generated in the meantime.
If you’re willing to pay those costs yourself, then, hey, have at it. Expecting someone else to do so because you, as a fan of the team, are somehow owed it, is nuts.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 17, 2009 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your penchant for strawman arguments is nuts. When did I ever say I was OWED anything?
Just because the Coyotes in Arizona doesn’t make sense to YOU doesn’t mean it wouldn’t make sense to someone else.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 18, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your penchant for strawman arguments is nuts. When did I ever say I was OWED anything?
You never say it, of course, but that is the attitude you express constantly. Your insistence that the team should be kept in Phoenix until it has some winning seasons is one. Why should someone pay that much money to wait and see if a team can be successful under those conditions? You are stating that someone should be willing to lose tens of millions of dollars that they will likely never be able to recapture to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix. Why do you insist on this? What justification is there for demanding it? As far as I can tell, it’s because the fans in Phoenix deserve a team. That means that you are claiming that you are owed something.
Just because the Coyotes in Arizona doesn’t make sense to YOU doesn’t mean it wouldn’t make sense to someone else.
If someone else is willing to pony up the money for those kinds of losses, more power to them. Please point me to this individual. As far as I can tell, all of the offers have contingency clauses allowing the owner to move the team, or sell it back to the NHL with the losses covered. The ones described are all in the range of 3 years. If you expect that Coyotes will be turning a profit within that time frame, you’re dreaming.
Given the lack of owners willing to commit to the kind of effort that would be required to make it work in Phoenix, I think that all of the relevant someone elses pretty much share my view.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 18, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I recall zyllyx implying that Arizona fans are owed...
…is a fair shake from the Canada-firsters and other traditional market chauvinists, by not judging their fandom and their region on the basis of the lousy teams they’ve been offered since the move to Glendale.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
by JoshCVT on Jun 18, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as I can tell, all of the offers have contingency clauses allowing the owner to move the team, or sell it back to the NHL with the losses covered. The ones described are all in the range of 3 years.
Really? You are that familiar with the terms of the offers? Colour me both surprised and impressed. I had no idea you were that plugged in. I would have thought you were just going by idle blog reader/poster speculation (none of whom know both the existence and actual terms of those offers), but I must have been completely wrong. Nice pickup.
by Gerald on Jun 18, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every single offer we have learned about was originally sold as keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix, and it then turned out that there was one of the above contingencies. That includes Reinsdorf, and the bid from the Argonauts owners. Until I see an offer that expressly does not contain such a contingency, I’m going to be skeptical that they exist. Given that the NHL has lied about the ones we do know about, I think that’s the only way to play it. If they want me to do anything other than disbelieve them, they should try being honest the first time.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 18, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where do you get this idea that you KNOW, or even have the slightest inkling, that there are contingencies in those offers? You don’t know, Michael, but the biger problem is that you think you do. There has been nothing but speculation with respect to the Reinsdorf offer, based on the assumptions of people like you that PHO is an unsustainable market. when you use that as your starting point, it is impossible to look at this in a businesslike manner. You should already know this.
Until I see an offer that expressly does not contain such a contingency
For your information, you have not seen an offer that DOES or DOES NOT contain such a contingency. You haven’t seen ANY offer. Somehow, though, that doesn’t keep you from believing that you know anything about the details of those offers.
Just to fill you in a bit, the Argonauts “bid” is not even a bid at this point. All they have done is file a preliminary background application for NHL ownership, and they "have indicated an interest in operating the franchise in PHO. Under my understanding of the published NHL relocation procedures, that is merely the step before making an offer.
As for the Reinsdorf offer, all we know is this (assuming that Bill Daly and Gary Bettman have not perjured themselves, and I think anyone should tread carefully before suggesting that):
1. It exists in the form of a letter of intent, and was being presented to Moyes on the date of bankruptcy;
2. That LOI contemplated significant “increased partnership with and participation from” the City of Glendale, which had been agreed upon in the main several months before (in November 2008).
3. Based on #2, it can only be inferred that the Reinsdorf offer entailed remaining in PHO for some period of time the duration of which we do NOT know.
I don’t know what you THINK you know, based on your own preconceptions and the asusmptions of sportswriters, but you don’t know anything more than the above, which I strongly suspect you are learning for the first time.
All this stuff is available online, Michael, and the stuff that isn’t I can provide you with if you want to send me your email. It will help you understand, and I do believe that you would want to know stuff.
by Gerald on Jun 19, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how you manage to infer exactly what all of this means. In fact, the NHL has been very careful in what it has said. It has said that all of the potential buyers are “interested” in keeping the team in Phoenix. That’s not even close to saying that they are committed to doing so. You assume that any concessions that they get from Glendale mean that they are locked into staying there, without considering that the team could end up back in bankruptcy in two years, and, with the NHL oh so reluctantly saying that it isn’t working, and they will have to move the team. You talk about how the city has agreed to a new partnership, without noting that the city hasn’t said anything publicly about that, and hasn’t taken any steps to secure the political approval necessary to allow such a deal to go through.
I don’t think we need to argue that anyone has perjured themselves, given the number of ways that the team could follow the NHL’s path and still end up leaving Phoenix without a single one of their pleadings actually being false.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 19, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All right now, that is just too much. I tried to be fair to you, and even gentle, but you are too much.
You actually have the gall to challenge anyone on this, when you blatantly stated things that were made up of whole cloth in the post to which I was responding?
Unlike your fabricating ass, I quoted actual court statements and did not try to sugarcoat anything. YOU, on the other hand, made statements for which you had absolutely NO SUPPORT whatsoever? I didn’t assume anything. I clearly stated (and I assume you can read) that the comments inferred that they would be staying, but for a period of time which we DO NOT KNOW. Get that?
My point – which remains unchallenged is that you said that all of those offers contained “contingencies”. My post quite clearly evidenced that you have no basis on which to make a statement to that effect.
The statements made by both the team and the NHL about the concessions tentatively agreed to by the City (and yes, any lamebrain would know that city council has to approve anything of this nature in any city) have been made in several pleadings and sworn declarations, and I am unaware of any replies in the court made by the city which negate those statements.
See how that works? I don’t know something one way or the other, so I so state it. Contrast that to your penchant for making things up without any knowledge.
by Gerald on Jun 20, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Insist, demand, etc.
There’s another strawman. You are interpreting (quite liberally, I might add) my comments based on your own sentiments.
I do not demand a new owner, or that someone SHOULD be willing to take losses as a Coyotes owner (although Balsillie seems to be very willing to do so if the team simply changes location). I believe there IS someone (or multiple someones) out there who sees the team as a long-term investment. Your inability to conceive of them, for whatever reason, does not preclude them being out there. They naturally would have far more faith in the market and potential of the club than you obviously have.
I do not insist that the team stay in Phoenix until the team has a winning season or two. I believe it would be EXCESSIVELY premature to give up on the market and call it a “failed experiment” until the local team has had a shot at success. The franchise is failing the market, not vice versa.
As for the “relevant someone elses pretty much [sharing your] view,” well, to each his own ego.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 18, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ballsilie is not willing to take the losses as the Coyotes owner. That’s why he wants to move them to Hamilton immediately, where he thinks that they won’t be losing any money.
As for believing that there is someone out there who sees the team as a long term investment, show me this person. Show me how it can possibly be a good long term investment. The short term losses matter. Something isn’t a good long term investment unless you stand to make enough money down the road to make up for the losses now. Those losses now compound, since money in five years doesn’t have the same present value as money now. So, the future profits have to be significantly larger than the current losses. To be a good long term investment, I’d bet that you have to discount future profits at about 8% per year. I don’t see any way that the team makes that much money in the future.
Even if they cut their expenses by $20 million a year and raise their revenues by $20 million a year, which I think is an optimistic projection, that only adds up to about $5 million profit, less whatever revenue sharing they forfeit. Let’s say that it takes five years to reach that point. If they lose $30 million this year, that will have compounded to more than $44 million in that time. 8% on $44 million is slightly more than $3.5 million. That means that, of your $5 million profit, more than 70% of it serves only to keep up with the increase in your losses from the first year. If you’ve lost more money in the intervening years, you won’t ever catch up. Your compounded losses will keep getting bigger, even though you’re turning a profit now.
That’s to say nothing of the cash flow problems that might result from the big early losses. If you want to convince me that anyone could think that the Coyotes in Phoenix are a good long term investment, you’ll have to show me how the losses just for 2009-10 will be significantly smaller than that and the losses very quickly dropping to zero, or the future profits significantly larger. Now convince me that chances of that scenario are high enough that it’s worth taking the risk that they’ll just continue to bleed money well into the future.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 19, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
michael, you might want to read this, wherein I compared PHO financials to NASH finances:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=644649
Long story short, it is hihgly doubtful that, although PHO incurred losses of that level (and beyond, actually) using GAAP, there is a strong likelihood that the real loss – even the real operating loss – is a fraction of those levels. There is a lot less ground to make up than Moyes has claimed. NASH had $25 million less in annual non-hockey expenses than PHO. Debt service was almost 3x higher, even though the amount of third party debt was nearly identical.
You should also read the Sheehan report, prepared by a Glendale consultant, which sets out inexquisite detail the various dubious/wasteful practices of Moyes.
The recipe for a succesful franchise in PHO is straightforward:
1. Take advantage of the $14.6 mil in lease concessions offered by the City;
2. Bring expenses down to the levels of a franchise like NASH;
3. Grow revenue sufficiently to ensure receipt of revenue sharing.
This is not pie-in-the-sky stuff. It has worked once already.
by Gerald on Jun 19, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Total expenses for Phoenix were $24.4 million higher than they were for Nashville. You try to break it out into a bunch of categories and then obfuscate what the total was. My above assumption is that Phoenix, over five years, can trim this by $20 million. I think that more accelerated reductions aren’t very likely. Still, let’s say that they get there after one year.
Note that your source never thinks about one potential reason why Phoenix’s debt service costs are higher than Nashville’s, namely that it is considered a much riskier enterprise to loan money to. I suspect that some of it is the interest paid to Moyes, but not all of it. Further, I don’t buy the argument that Moyes receiving an ownership interest means that he can’t be a creditor. That combination happens all the time.
I also assumed that revenues would increase by $20 million over five years, when they are currently about the same as Nashville’s. I think that this is extremely generous, given the likelihood that they are going to go down dramatically this year. Let’s adjust my thinking by saying that revenue declines by $5 million this year, gets back to last year’s numbers next year, and then rises by $5 million each of the next three years.
The immediate savings on expenses is the lease modification. That, by itself, lowers next year’s losses by, call it, $15 million (your statement as to what the city offered, though the city has said that it didn’t agree to anything, and they can’t definitively agree to anything without public action). Revenue loss adds $5 million to them. We’re working from a start of $35 million in losses. That means that, instead of my projection of $30 million in losses next year, we have $25 million. That means that, after 5 years, the compounded losses would be going up by about $3 million a year, rather than $3.5 million. That’s not going to make a huge difference to the long range forecasts, particularly since an internal rate of return of 8% is pretty low for an investment like this; what rate do you think someone would be charged if they asked to borrow all of the money to finance the purchase of the Coyotes and cover their operating losses in this environment? I’d be really surprised if they could do it for 8%, and then you have to put liquidity risk and normal profits on top of that.
The reason that I keep insisting that I don’t believe that anyone thinks that this is a good long term investment in Phoenix is that I can’t find a way to juggle the numbers that make it a reasonable risk to take.
As for the Sheehan report, I haven’t found an actual copy of it, but what I have read suggests that it contains a number of unjustified assumptions itself. It argues that the Coyotes can just make a bunch of their expenses go away. It assumes that they can both cut the marketing budget and increase the effectiveness of the marketing, which I don’t see as well supported. Look, it was an argument filed by one of the parties in a court case. I expect it to lean as hard as it can to support that side. One of the very big problems I have with your arguments is that you consistently take the pleadings of one side in this case at face value, while deriding the pleadings of the other side. Your utter lack of skepticism as to what the NHL and the City of Glendale have said means that it’s impossible to take you seriously.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 19, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can anyone go to an NFL game after watching hockey and not be bored silly?
Are you suggesting that the millions and millions of people who watch football every Sunday in the fall have never seen hockey? To me, this is pie-in-the-sky thinking. The problem simply isn’t that Americans haven’t seen hockey – they have. And in overwhelming numbers, they’ve shown that they prefer football, baseball and basketball.
by dzuunmod on Jun 17, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many of those people have seen a hockey game in person? Hockey doesn’t translate well to TV, that’s for sure.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 17, 2009 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I'm not.
At least not in the US. If I had been introduced to hockey through the VERSUS broadcasts instead of by going to a game, I likely wouldn’t be a fan of the game.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 18, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand, not one of the people that I have taken to their first hockey game has developed any interest in the sport. They enjoyed the evening, but weren’t captivated. This is in Minnesota, though, admittedly, most of my friends are, like me, from elsewhere. The people that I have taken, that I can think of off the top of my head, include two Minnesotans, someone from New Orleans, and a Pole.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 18, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My experience has been completely different.
I have mentioned before that I have four season tickets. I usually take family but during weekday games my kids can’t go because of school. I therefore invite friends and friends of friends to go with me, almost all of whom have never seen a hockey game in person before. I have only had one person come out of a game totally unaffected by the action or enthusing about hockey and wanting to go back – the wife of a friend I invited along one night who attended as a “date night” with her husband.
Now, those people I introduced to the sport are a drop in the bucket compared to how many new eyes the team needs, but I think in terms of the sport the advantage I had was that the people who went to the games with me saw the game with fresh eyes. Those that said they had caught a hockey game or highlights on TV remarked that they never knew the game was so fast or so energetic in person.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
by zyllyx on Jun 18, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Millions of Americans have gone through hockey game turnstiles. How long do we wait before we acknowledge that the NHL surpassing (or just pulling level with any of) the NBA, MLB or the NFL simply isn’t going to happen?
Just give me a year, so that eventually we can delcare the experimenting over, and make some concessions to the existing fans of the sport, instead of chasing after pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.
by dzuunmod on Jun 18, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note that the requirements for being successful involve violtating two signed contracts.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 17, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Such violations (i.e. “renegotiation”) are a pretty common occurrence in this industry, as you know. Particularly when expected results (realistic or un-) fail to materialize.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
by JoshCVT on Jun 17, 2009 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure. Contract renegotiations happen all the time. So does flat out breach of contract. Welcome to the business world. I just happen to think that, aside from the legal truth that all breaches of contract can be settled with monetary damages (except a very small number that require specific performance) and is just a cost of doing business, deciding to break a contract is morally dubious in most cases. Even if it’s normal, I’m going to criticize it.
Unless the party in breach is bankrupt, which seems to be the case here. In that case, breaking contracts becomes not only acceptable, but necessary. However, if the team is bankrupt, I’m not all that interested in fans telling me what they, or the team, are owed.
by J. Michael Neal on Jun 17, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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