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American viewers are tuning in

... barring a huge increase in interest and a seven-game finish, Hockey Night In Canada is almost surely looking at its second straight ratings drop for the final. Even though hockey still beats out everything on the sports dial here, the fact is twice as many Americans are watching the final than Canadians.

– Chris Zelkovich, Toronto Star

It's a point that doesn't get made often enough here in Canada, but for all the talk of U.S. television ratings for hockey, there are a lot of people watching the games – more than four million a night for these finals, anyway. The difference is that, in this country, somewhere around 7 or 8 per cent of people are watching the game, a figure that's only around 1.5 per cent in the U.S.

(And, of course, we're talking about two American teams taking part here. Add in a Canadian team to the finals, and the ratings on CBC would increase dramatically.)

I often hear from Canadian fans how the league should have three or four more teams in this country and how those in the U.S. don't "deserve" their teams, but numbers like these tell otherwise. The fact is that we live in a country that has a population nine times smaller than that of our neighbour, and that, more than anything, is why the NHL's become a predominantly American run and owned league. Canada has only six cities with a population base of one million or more, which is about the size needed to support an NHL team; the U.S. has 52.

While I agree that the NHL is missing a huge opportunity to get more fans into another building here in Southern Ontario, on some level, does it not make some sense to pursue the 300 million people in the U.S. who aren't watching the finals as opposed to the 30 million who aren't watching in this country?

I'd be interested to hear from Canadians and Americans alike on why they are or aren't watching the finals this year.

Poll
What option describes your hockey-viewing habits for the finals:
I'm Canadian and I've watched all the games
124 votes
I'm Canadian and I've watched some of the games
153 votes
I'm Canadian and I'm not watching
29 votes
I'm American and I've watched all the games
526 votes
I'm American and I've watched some of the games
140 votes
I'm American and I'm not watching
14 votes
I'm from outside North America
52 votes

1038 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 141 comments  |  Add comment |

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Afternoon weekend games killed the finals for me.
I have things to do on the saturday or Sunday afternoon.=

Leafs selling hope to the hopeless since 1967

by Toe Blake Hockey on Jun 8, 2009 12:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But in these particular finals, they’ve played weekend night games (unless you’re on the west coast…).

by dzuunmod on Jun 8, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not the first two, but I could be wrong on that not having watched much of the series,
I even tried to double check that. Ahhh put me down as lazy and apathetic then!

Leafs selling hope to the hopeless since 1967

by Toe Blake Hockey on Jun 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every single game in these finals has been played at 8pm Eastern time.

by jameshstephenson on Jun 8, 2009 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m on the West Coast, and I re-arraged my schedule to make sure I watch every game. But then again, that dedication also explains why I have no dates. Hockey before everything else. Something in life has to suffer. :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?

by ang6666 on Jun 8, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was during the earlier playoff rounds, but not the finals. The finals games all started at about 8:30 pm eastern (by the time they finally finished the commercials and blathering and actually dropped the puck).

"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams

by Baroque on Jun 8, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

on some level, does it not make some sense to pursue the 300 million people in the U.S. who aren’t watching the finals as opposed to the 30 million who aren’t watching in this country?

I agree to some extent James – the league needs to make some concessions toward the end of gaining American fans – but we also need to consider the context. The fact of the matter is that the NHL has been on American network television (virtually uninterrupted) for decades now. At what point do we throw our hands up and acknowledge that perhaps the big payday simply isn’t in the offing?

Sure, the finals are looking good for US TV this season, but what happens when the next Edmonton-Carolina or Anaheim-Ottawa final rolls around?

by dzuunmod on Jun 8, 2009 12:53 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Don’t know about you, but I’d be watching the games regardless.

The thing that I’m not sure is addressed is that Americans tend to glom onto championships and “big events” in big numbers – but run-of-the-mill games don’t get the same level of attention.

Thus, regardless of who’s playing, the Stanley Cup will get boffo numbers while a mid-season game will likely suffer from more apathy.

You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.

by zyllyx on Jun 8, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thus, regardless of who’s playing, the Stanley Cup will get boffo numbers

Guess it depends on one’s definition of “boffo”

by dzuunmod on Jun 8, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Decades? The NHL has been on network TV in the US since 1995. Before then it was on a few networks who would show like 1 game in the finals and a few weekend games here and there. And that was in the 70’s.

by chileiceman on Jun 8, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_on_CBS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_on_NBC

The “virtually uninterrupted” part was hyperbole – you’re right (that’ll teach me to take Bob McCown at his word). But there are still plenty of seasons in there where the networks were airing a game of the week. My point remains: does anyone really believe that an MLB-, NBA- or (haha) NFL-style national TV contract is really coming down the pipe for the NHL anytime soon? No? So then why should concessions be made to US network television?

by dzuunmod on Jun 8, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you’re talking at cross purposes here. If the NHL and it’s network TV partner can expend a little bit of energy (say 10%) and net just a few more US fans (say 30 million) they will have matched the absolute ceiling of viewership in Canada. But you want to throw any interpretation of that strategy out the window? That doesn’t make any sense.

2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity

by Mike @ MHH on Jun 10, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you really believe that Americans haven’t taken a big shine to the sport because they haven’t been exposed to it?

by dzuunmod on Jun 10, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d ask you the same thing about the 30 million Canadian viewers.

2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity

by Mike @ MHH on Jun 10, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thing about the Canadian viewers is that they’re watching on a network that actually pays cash money for the privilege of broadcasting the games.

by dzuunmod on Jun 10, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not an ideal analogy (and obviously it’s so far from reality that it’s laughable), but it’s not bad: try to imagine how it’d go over with American viewers if the start dates and times of World Series and playoff games were dictated to FOX by a Canadian network that paid infinitely less in rights fees, because MLB wanted to “grow the Canadian market”.

by dzuunmod on Jun 10, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I highly doubt anyone reading or posting on this blog isn’t watching any portion of the finals.

(although 4 out of 90 votes say otherwise)

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 8, 2009 1:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I actually figured more people weren’t watching the finals … a lot of people tune out once their team is eliminated (blog traffic actually decreases after the first round!).

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Valid point.

No matter my allegiances though, the Cup may be raised tonight. Just that possibility is good enough for me to tune in, because it’s the best trophy in sports.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 8, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean tomorrow.

(I wish it was tonight)

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 8, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

me too

the schedule of this year’s final has really pissed me off… the breaks are waaaaay too long, I like having games every other night and once they start messing with that I just do whatever I feel like and don’t schedule things around game nights.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Jun 8, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can’t bring myself to watch. I’m “following”, because that’s what I do, but I’m tuning out due to generally petty reasons.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 1:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What are you doing then as a Habs fan?

Watching Gainey move at his glacial pace?
Crossing off the days until half the roster leaves on July 1?

by Exit716 on Jun 8, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was watching the French Open the past couple of weeks, to be honest. And I’m going out more (those matches are on in the morning so if I wanted to watch something, I’d PVR it and then watch it at my leisure, then meet up with people during the evening). I also watched the Memorial Cup when that was happening. There used to not be hockey in June… I’m okay with not watching the final 6-7 games spread over a two week period when it’s warm out…. though it’s been a cool spring here.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the warm weather claims a lot of Canadians. We do only get a few months of it, so I can’t blame fringe fans for not wanting to sit inside.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Something something Southern fans… football… October something something.

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 9, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The conversation’s getting more intelligent as we go along here apparently.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And … you don’t want me to compare ratings in the Southern U.S. to what they’re getting in Canada. The American ratings are good, but the bulk of them are coming from Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But that same logic could be applied to nearly every Southern US city for large chunks of the regular and post-season, plus add in the multiple opportunities to spend the entertainment dollar in most of those cities (NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA, etc.), yet Americans (especially in those aforementioned southern cities) are repeatedly bashed for not shunning daylight and other sports and embracing the NHL for 9 months out of every year. And the vast majority of said bashing seems to originate from north of the border. Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.

2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity

by Mike @ MHH on Jun 10, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The difference is that Canadians gets about three months of nice weather and have spent all season watching hockey. The majority of Southern fans have nice weather closer to year round and are likely not as diehard when it comes to their viewing habits of their home team.

Oilers fans are just Oilers fans, that’s all. It’s not like these numbers are indicative of Nashville turning on its TVs in record numbers for the finals.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The majority of Southern fans have nice weather closer to year round and are likely not as diehard when it comes to their viewing habits of their home team.

I think you’re wrong there. The diehards are watching their team’s games at the same rate as Canadians, no matter what else is on. That’s what makes them diehards, and in this part of the continent hockey fandom is binary — all on or all off. The problem in the South is getting casual sports fans to put hockey in the mix (making fandom less binary) and maybe creating some new diehards in the process, where in Canada hockey dominates the sports landscape to the point that casual fans can’t not follow it. (This is why some advocate getting back on ESPN at any cost, because ESPN’s willingness to promote their broadcast properties within news programming is the best pathway to reach those fans.) The competition for those casual eyeballs in the South is much stronger than in Canada, and on a time base is perhaps at its highest point all year in October, subsides in November as baseball ends and football teams lose, and finally gets to a stable level in December.

I don’t think any of us have argued that the raw numbers/percentages of “hockey fans” would be equivalent if you walked down the street in Edmonton or Raleigh asking people, which is what drawing TV ratings is like in the multi-channel universe. We’re arguing that there are/can be (with appropriate team quality and marketing) sufficient numbers of hockey fans in Southern markets to support a team, which is different.

(Besides, July and August in the South aren’t “nice,” they’re just a different form of intolerable from January and February in Edmonton. There’s a good reason mass migration to this part of the country didn’t start until air conditioning was invented.)

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 10, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point was that many hardcore hockey fans in the U.S. like the game as their second or third choice. In places like Nashville, etc., the Preds only get decent attendance/ratings when the NFL season is over.

This is not an issue here. Canadian fans are plugged in from training camp until their teams are eliminated, and it doesn’t speak to their fandom that they’re less interested in the finals matchup.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of which, where is part 4 of the Smashville series already? ;-)

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 10, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn’t put it out in the middle of the playoffs, so it’ll probably be late June. I do have a lot of material for it.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many more parts are there?

Welcome to Smashville, Tennessee.
Official Graphic Designer/Researcher of MCM.

by Aditya T (smashville) on Jun 10, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s it, one more. The conclusion.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you know any ways to get some more commenters over at On the Forecheck? It’s pretty lonely over there…

Welcome to Smashville, Tennessee.
Official Graphic Designer/Researcher of MCM.

by Aditya T (smashville) on Jun 10, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Move the team to Hamilton?

(I’m kidding.)

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 10, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just when I thought you were happy with hockey in Nashville!

Welcome to Smashville, Tennessee.
Official Graphic Designer/Researcher of MCM.

by Aditya T (smashville) on Jun 10, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Matchup and personalities make the difference

I think the matchup has a lot to do with both sets of ratings, James. Detroit v. Pittsburgh is a great sell in many American markets, especially those of the two teams. However, for me (and probably some other Canadians), it’s the worst final I could imagine. We’ve already seen this before last year with very similar lineups, and these teams just don’t really appeal to me.

The question I have to consider every time I tune in is which team I hate less, and it’s a difficult one. The Red Wings are the Yankees of the NHL (except better); generally in contention, loved by their fans and hated by just about everyone else. Pittsburgh would be a nice change of pace, except for Crosby the human hype machine. I’m still watching the games, but I can’t get too excited about them. If they turn out to be close, then that’s all right, but blowouts like the one the other night just compel me to change the channel even more. That’s not to criticize anyone who is enjoying this matchup; it just doesn’t appeal to me.

One nice thing is that the NHL’s being smart and generally not going head to head with the NBA Finals; if they were, I’d be watching those instead, as it’s a much more compelling matchup. The interesting thing there is if Cleveland had won, it would be very similar to the NHL finals; the dynasty against the up-and-coming superstar and his team. However, I’d still take that over a Pittsburgh – Detroit final. At least LeBron and Kobe have interesting personalities, and it’s fun to watch the clash between them. In this one, we’ve got dull-as-dishwater Crosby as the main attraction. The most interesting personality in the series is actually Chelios for my money, and he barely gets to play these days.

Editor of www.sportingmadness.blogspot.com.
Whitecaps correspondent for 24thminute.com.

by Andrew Bucholtz on Jun 8, 2009 1:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

IMO, it would be compelling if these two teams didn’t play last year as well.

- These two teams played last year, and there really isn’t much of a difference except one of Pittsburgh’s best players defected to Detroit. I’ve had several friends that have asked “why do they even bother playing? We know the result!” and thus have barely watched.

- I don’t think for the majority of people it’s about the personalities, at least on Pittsburgh’s side, but maybe that’s just the way I see it. Yeah, there’s a problem with Detroit and the “robots” their system has produced, but how much of that is due to the amount of foreign players on the Detroit roster and the language barrier? I’d think a lot of that is. We’ve seen that Datsyuk can be hilarious when he speaks to the media in English, it’s just something he’s not very comfortable with.

- Contrary to what Gary Bettman thinks, I don’t think the NHL needs Crosby, Ovechkin, or any one player to succeed to “promote the game”. They would be better served if he wasn’t, as you say, “dull-as-dishwater”. I do agree with you there. But on the contrary, he’s only 22 years old and is mature and articulate and accomodating despite the burdens placed on him by, well, everyone. That doesn’t count for something? How long has it been since the NHL has had a true, 100% American star?

Modano? Old.
Roenick? Old.
Chelios? Older.
LaFontaine? Long gone.

IMO, the best case for the NHL is the future success of the Chicago franchise, led by (American) Pat Kane. American stars will lead to American eyes watching the NHL.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 8, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

@Afino: Yeah, good points on Crosby. I don’t think it’s really his fault; it’s Bettman’s overpromotion of him that really ticks me off. I like Ovechkin about 100 times more than Crosby because he’s got incredible skill, he always seems to be having fun and he’s a compelling personality. Agree with you on Kane, and it’s not just about nationality; I’d much rather watch young American stars like Kane or Russian ones like Ovechkin than a Canadian guy like Crosby, even if Don Cherry wouldn’t agree.

@CTGray: Good point; I don’t really know the interest level in other American markets. Was only guessing that it might be up there thanks to the TV ratings, but those might be mostly from the states involved.

Editor of www.sportingmadness.blogspot.com.
Whitecaps correspondent for 24thminute.com.

by Andrew Bucholtz on Jun 8, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the matchup has a lot to do with both sets of ratings, James. Detroit v. Pittsburgh is a great sell in many American markets, especially those of the two teams.

I think you’d be surprised to find that many Americans, especially those of us who are native to the west coast, could care less about teams in the east and near east/mid west. Ask me how much I hear about the Yankees and Red Sox vs how much I care.

It’s hockey, so I’m going to watch regardless, but as a Californian, I really don’t find this match up appealing. It’s a team I don’t like vs a team I find amusing. That’s it. Of course given how many times I have heard that my large state = a small tv market, my opinion matters very little.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s hockey, so I’m going to watch regardless

This is where CTGray and I definitely agree. It’s hockey, there is very little left of the season, and I’m going to watch every game I can. Regardless if my team is in it or not.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?

by ang6666 on Jun 8, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn’t agree with you more. In California, the EST games start at 4. Its not the easiest thing to be home at 4, even being a mere high school student. So I ended up being apathetic to most teams east of the Mississippi, just like those on the east coast rarely stay up until 10:30 to watch west coast games when they aren’t a fan of one of the teams playing. A Detroit-Pittsburgh matchup is no more appealing to me than a Florida-Minnesota one (no offense to fans of either team – just throwing out two teams that I have no personal connection to). I will watch it, because hockey is hockey, and not because I have any interest in the two teams playing.

But I’m Californian, and like Gray said, my opinion doesn’t matter. Its not like California has 3 million more people than all of Canada, right?

"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Fools and Sages

by mymclife on Jun 8, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

More people, but many, many fewer hockey fans. Of course California matters, but when you’re talking about NHL ratings today, given the present popularity of the sport there… well, it just doesn’t matter much.

by RyanV on Jun 8, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except that California is stuck in this cycle of perpetuity; Versus and NBC don’t get high ratings for hockey here because they rarely show teams that the average Californian would care about (Sharks, Ducks, and Kings) – the six game Sharks-Ducks series this year had two more games nationally broadcasted than all three CA teams combined had during the regular season – and because they start the Winter Classic at 9AM on New Year’s Day (just doesn’t work). And then they don’t show the Californian teams and start the Winter Classic later because they don’t get high ratings here, and so why bother?

"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Fools and Sages

by mymclife on Jun 8, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The start times are the biggest problem for me.

A 4 p.m. PST start means I’ll be lucky to catch the last 5 minutes of the third. If it weren’t a repeat of last year’s final with two teams I don’t really care for, I’d probably make more of an effort to watch. I know I’m not going to get to see much hockey for the next few months but I just can’t bring myself to. Saturday’s game was the last one I could have watched in full and I went to a baseball game instead.

It takes a big man to cry and it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. -Jamie Baker
NIEDKLERYARYER
oer sometoethin lie kthat!!!! -Mr. K

by Lurker Shark on Jun 8, 2009 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As Baroque pointed out above

The Official start time for every game in this series is 5 PM PST, but the puck doesn’t drop until 5:30. Additionally, three of the seven games were scheduled on the weekend, so if the teams did interest you, you could have likely seen Games 1, 2 and 5 in their entirety, while only missing the first period of Games 3, 4, 6 and 7.

You didn’t miss much the other night when you were at the Athletics (?) game, but if you can sneak away from the office tomorrow and Friday, and be home by 6 PM, you’ll be glad you did. ;-)

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops

That should have been a 5. A 4:00-4:30 start and I’d miss the whole thing. I’ll be getting home earlier tonight so I can watch most of it, it is an elimination game after all. If it goes to 7, I’ve got Friday off, but I’ll be out of town for my brother’s graduation. At least I won’t have to worry about the hotel not having Versus.

That’s what I’ve been hearing about game 5. And good call on the A’s there. Got it in one.

It takes a big man to cry and it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. -Jamie Baker
NIEDKLERYARYER
oer sometoethin lie kthat!!!! -Mr. K

by Lurker Shark on Jun 9, 2009 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Red Wings Canadiens are the Yankees of the NHL

Much more accurate. They both have the most titles. They both have multiple stretches of completely dominating the league. The Red Wings are more accurately described as the St. Louis Cardinals (baseball version) of the NHL. They have the second most titles. They have multiple stretches of being dominant teams, but nothing like the leader. Both are in smaller markets with a rabid fan base. I like the Montreal Canadiens a lot more than I like the Yankees, but they are the better comparison. It’s just that, right now is their equivalent of the Yankees’ years of being owned by CBS.

I also guess that I care a lot less about the personalities of the players off the ice and more about how much fun they are to watch on the ice. In the latter, I also appreciate Nick Lidstrom’s work denying someone the puck as much as a big hit, though I do concede that he’s probably the most boring superstar in sports history, just edging out some very good tennis players.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, I’d liken the Red Wings with the Red Sox much more so (especially after they played Sweet Caroline during Game 5) – had long droughts between championships, but then broke the drought and became consistently one of the top teams in the league every year since. And while you were rooting for them at first, you realize that some of their fans are kind of annoying and act a bit entitled (some, not all), and so you start hating them on the same level as the Canadiens/Yankees.

But yeah, I agree with the Canadiens being the Yankees, but not the Wings being the Cardinals.

"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Fools and Sages

by mymclife on Jun 8, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Red Wings/Red Sox analogy breaks down when you realize that Boston is the second biggest spender in MLB, and the gap between them and 3rd is enormous. For all that people think of the Wings as a huge payroll team, the free spending ways really encompass a period from 1997 to the lockout. It seems really big in people’s minds right now, it’s actually a very short stretch of history.

Another thing is that the internal dynamics of the Wings are far more reminiscent of the Cardinals than the Red Sox. Nobody plays for Boston for less than market value, whereas players do play for both St. Louis and Detroit, in their respective leagues, for less than they could make elsewhere. I also see some similarities between Ken Holland and Branch Rickey, though Rickey was quite a bit more ruthless than I’ve gotten the sense that Holland is.

As a city, Detroit also has a lot more in common with St. Louis than it does with Boston. Much more industrial. Much less wealthy. Much more midwestern.

Lastly, trust me when I say that Cardinals fans are perfectly capable of being self-entitled, sanctimonious jackasses that think they are the only true fans in the game. Ask around the rest of the National League, and you aren’t going to find too many people falling over themselves to express love for the Cardinals.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except that the NHL operates under a salary cap, and MLB doesn’t – hockey teams can no longer try and lure all sorts of free agents with huge contracts, no matter who they are. So the salary argument breaks down a bit just from the payroll rules of the respective leagues – especially the argument about how players take a discount to play for the Wings and not the BoSox. In order to play for the Wings, a player pretty much has to take a discount because of the lack of cap space (see: Hossa). The BoSox can throw money left and right, so of course a player is going to want a pay day.

I mean, I can totally see your point, but I just like the Red Wings/Red Sox comparison a bit better.

"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Fools and Sages

by mymclife on Jun 8, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget the rings.

The Cards have quite a few more than the Red Sox do. Second only to the Yankees in fact. You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the Red Wings/Cardinals comparison.

It takes a big man to cry and it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. -Jamie Baker
NIEDKLERYARYER
oer sometoethin lie kthat!!!! -Mr. K

by Lurker Shark on Jun 8, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Red Wings played “Sweet Caroline” near the end of Game 5. Therefore, I win ;P

Honestly, I don’t know enough baseball history to make a perfect comparison. Songs and what happened during my conscious lifetime are what I’m basing my personal comparison on. Plus, both their team names begin with the word “Red.” And they have among the oldest arenas/ballparks in the league. That sort of thing.

But, yeah. I concede the comparison supremacy to you, J. Michael Neal. For now…

"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Fools and Sages

by mymclife on Jun 8, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, there’s a reason the Wings don’t spend much more than everyone else does since the lockout. However, the whole idea that they spend more than everyone else is the product of a very narrow window in time. Even if there is a reason, that doesn’t change the actual history.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Canadiens were only a dynasty because of their domain claims over French Canadian players. This would be like if the Cowboys were always granted the top 10 football players from Texas – they’d have around 20 titles too under that scenario (including pre-Super Bowl era). With the blip exceptions of ‘86 & ’93, Montreal hasn’t been relevant since ‘79. That’s 30 some years of mediocrity. The Yankees had 5 or 6 different dynasties against more teams in competition.

I’m not saying the Red Wings are better (because they certainly aren’t), but I don’t think either team is on par with the Yankees, and this pains me to say because I hate the Yankees.

by VA Libertarian on Jun 9, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a myth

All six NHL teams had the same opportunity to sponsor junior leagues. Montreal just took better advantage of the practice.

That’d be like saying that Detroit has exclusive domain over Sweden.

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree that the NHL is missing a huge opportunity to get more fans into another building here in Southern Ontario, on some level, does it not make some sense to pursue the 300 million people in the U.S. who aren’t watching the finals as opposed to the 30 million who aren’t watching in this country?

Well said, James. Too many fans seem to make this an either/or proposition. You can pursue growing the sport in the US through increasing TV exposure (and hopefully increasing youth participation in nontraditional markets) and look to tap potential revenue in Canada at the same time. But I am one of the people who thinks the NHL risks taking its fanbase for granted if it does too much to try and make US TV happy (like scheduling playoff series over a three-week period to maximize weekend TV opportunities).

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Jun 8, 2009 1:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think that it’s entirely an either/or proposition, but there are elements of it. If you have a fixed number of franchises (and I’m in the camp that thinks more expansion is not a good idea) the only way you can add a team somewhere is by taking it away from someone else. It’s zero sum.

I also think that there is a huge difference between the statement, “The NHL needs to stop catering to the US in the search of a better TV contract,” and the statement, “The NHL needs to pull the plug on [insert struggling franchise city here] in order to increase its revenues.” The first is, obviously, just wrong. The second is defensible; some might disagree with it, but it isn’t obviously wrong. Even in the narrow sense, I question whether or not having a team in Phoenix even helps to get a good US TV contract.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Canada has only six cities with a population base of one million or more, which is about the size needed to support an NHL team; the U.S. has 52.”

James, a quick question. When you say cities with a population of over 1 million, do you mean within the city limits, or population of the entire metropolitan area?

by RedBirdie on Jun 8, 2009 2:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Metro.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada

As you can see, James is correct in this (based on 2006 numbers). This also shows why many think Hamilton is not the ideal spot for a second Southern Ontario franchise… a second team in Toronto/Mississauga makes a bit more sense.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, it’s not ideal, but it’s more realistic than thinking another team is going to be plopped in the middle of Toronto.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The total populations of just the metropolitan areas of New York City and Los Angeles combined is greater than the total population of Canada. Someone asked me about it one day, so I looked it up. Besides, I enjoy population studies – I guess that’s why I’m a geographer.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 8, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry – not more than, but almost the same. Metro LA + Metro NYC = ~30 million. Canada = ~33 million.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 8, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

By CSA (Combined Statistical Areas), it is greater than the entire Canadian population by about 5m:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Combined_Statistical_Areas

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice call. But most people wouldn’t know the CSA and MSA designations. That’s why I went with the conventional usage.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 8, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know the difference. Could you enlighten us?

I was always under the impression that MSA’s were already slightly combined. San Francisco’s MSA encompasses San Jose, does it not? Yet San Jose gets their own MSA, as well. If you tally up all of California’s MSA’s, don’t you arrive at a figure greater than the state’s population?

Canadian CMA’s are all mutualy exclusive. There is a clear border somewhere between Hamilton and Toronto. Gatineau does not get their own, as they are already included in Ottawa’s. Given the linear distribution of Canada’s population, there aren’t too many other examples, but I recall learning that CMA’s and MSA’s were calculated differently.

I don’t know if that difference involves only the radius or the density, but aren’t MSA’s more inflated than CMA’s in some ways?

by TD O'Dell on Jun 8, 2009 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The main difference has to do with CSA’s combining metro areas that have easy transport/commuter links with each other. Doing this metric combines LA all the way with Ontario, and Baltimore with Washington, DC. In Canada, it would essentially consider the entire Golden Horsehoe region as a CSA… there is so much interconnected links between the cities that it could be considered a single region.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it true that

even MSA’s can combine two metro areas? As in San Jose being a part of SF.

It would go a long way towards explaining how the population of California is less than the sum of its parts. Whether or not I’m correct about that, I do recall learning that MSA’s are basically stretched further than Canadian CMA’s, meaning the GTA might stretch east to Peterborough, if calculated as an MSA.

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is a county with a major city of at least 50,000 people, which is considered an “urban core.” When the majority of people from an adjoining or nearby county makes a daily work commute to that urban core, then that county is considered part of that MSA. It’s all based on commuting patterns and political boundaries of counties.

So, I’m originally from the Seattle area, and Seattle is a major city of almost 600,000 people (within its city limits only) and is located within King County. The adjoining counties of Snohomish (city of Everett, north) and Pierce (city of Tacoma, south) make up its MSA. The total population of the Seatte MSA is approximately 3.2 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_metropolitan_area

A Combined Statistica Area (CSA) are several adjoining MSAs put together. So, again, with Seattle, that would include most of the counties that have shoreline on Puget Sound. The total population of the Seatte CSA is approximately 4 million.

These are US Census Bureau designations and definitions, by the way.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 9, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff

I learn more on this site than I remember learning in school.

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that demographics class I took in college is coming in handy. Finally.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 9, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quebec City is ranked 6th in Canada with a population of 727,445, so can you tell us who are the other five cities? Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and?

by Fred Poulin on Jun 8, 2009 3:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The 6 cities are the ones that have NHL teams.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re mistaken.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Canadian Metro populations (2006 estimates):

1. Toronto 5,113,149
2. Montreal 3,635,571
3. Vancouver 2,116,581
4. Ottawa 1,130,761
5. Calgary 1,079,310
6. Edmonton 1,034,945
-
7. Quebec City 715,515
8. Winnipeg 694,668
9. Hamilton 692,911
10. London 457,720

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada

by VA Libertarian on Jun 9, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

From reading these comments, Im learning two things:

(1) Canada’s cities are much smaller than I realized.
(2) Lots of people don’t have TiVos or other DVRs. How can people not watch the games on tape? If you time it right, you can fast forward through all the between period crap and still watch the last 10 minutes live.

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Jun 8, 2009 3:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah man

winnipeg’s a lot closer to being wichita than it is minneapolis.

by passive_voice on Jun 8, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s no Tulsa, that’s for sure.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 8, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

About 17 per cent of the country’s population is in the Greater Toronto Area. A lot of the rest of it’s pretty spread out.

Heck, Kamloops is something like the 35th biggest city in the country with 90,000 people.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really? Kamloops is that big? Are you including Merritt and Salmon Arm in that estimate?

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 9, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, those are different cities, located 45~ mins away.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I know. I used to go thru Merritt to get up to Kamloops from Bellingham. And then would occasionally go thru Vernon from there on my way to Kelowna. I was trying to be funny, James.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 9, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

(1) Canada’s cities are much smaller than I realized.

I’d heard all the cracks about the country having more moose and beavers than human residents, but I had no idea there were so many small cities. I knew the population was spread out, but I thought there were a few more large cities.

"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams

by Baroque on Jun 9, 2009 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are really only three of what I would call “big” cities: Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. Calgary’s getting there.

Canada seems to have a ton of places in the 100,000 range, which is where I’m from. I’m not sure why that is. It’s just such a massive geographic area for 33 million people to live in — it makes sense they are spread out to a certain extent.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even the Alberta cities and Ottawa are still fairly small. They may have grown a lot in the past 15 years, but Edmonton and Calgary still have a ways to go to become big cities. Calgary’s growth is probably the more sustainable of the three 1.1m or so cities due to demographics, location and economy.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jun 9, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Part of what’s been ruining my enjoyment of the finals (aside from the Hawks not being in it of course) is the poor quality of the broadcasts we have available. VS seems to think it’s a good idea to zoom in on a player after he passes the puck, and you miss a couple seconds of action to watch someone admire their work. We often miss the scrums after the whistle because they’d rather show the goalie skating in a circle with the puck in his glove. I often miss the lower half of the ice because they’re promoting some UFC fight or something of that nature. I know we’ve beaten VS to death over at SCH but it’s a pretty valid point. NBC’s overall quality is a little better, but hockey is too fast-paced to try and put up with two analysts at once.

Unfortunately I don’t have access to TSN or CBC or anything of the sort, but I’m willing to bet they do a little better with it. I feel like it would be wise for the national broadcasters to watch some of the production of the local games and see what works. Hawks games on CSN Chicago are particularly well done, though the games televised on WGN are certainly not as good. The only other “home” broadcast I’ve seen was a Bruins game on NESN which I also thought was well done. Regardless of who I’m watching, I think I’ll always prefer to have someone’s home announcers because they just seem that much more into the action and really draw you into it. That kind of excitement is something that could really draw in a casual observer who’s maybe just flipping through channels. Not that Emerick is doing a bad job, because I actually find him to be entertaining, but having a rooting interest makes the game more fun to watch, and if the announcers have one too it seems like the broadcast is more fun.

by hawksfan21 on Jun 8, 2009 4:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

These results to the poll are intriguing. It seems like the blog has more American readers than Canadian (not surprising, considering the US in 10x bigger).

But the biggest surprise is that American fans seem to be more interested in the Stanley Cup. More are watching than not watching by a very wide margin, while here in Canada more are tuning out than tuning in.

I think if you consider yourself to be a hockey fan, there’s no good reason to not watch the SCF. Would a NFL miss the Super Bowl? I think not.

by chileiceman on Jun 8, 2009 6:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

My readership has always generally been close to 50/50, but the past few months, as SBN has expanded, it’s tilted to 60/40 for the U.S. And more Canadian fans are tuning out the blogs, etc., with their teams all eliminated.

Keep in mind too that the only American fans coming here are hockey hardcores, so they’ll obviously be more interested in the finals. I imagine a ton of the U.S. voters are either in Detroit or Pittsburgh.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think if you consider yourself to be a hockey fan, there’s no good reason to not watch the SCF. Would a NFL miss the Super Bowl? I think not.

Not to play up the cliche too much but it’s finally nice in Canada so there might be something more important or attractive than watching two teams most of us hate

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 8, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe so. But for me the SCF has always been must see television. I actually make sure I have nothing planned those days so I can watch the games.

I hate these two teams too, but it seems pointless for me to invest so much time (and money) into the NHL season to not watch the finals.

by chileiceman on Jun 8, 2009 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of Canadians will watch the deciding games but not the early ones.

June’s just a bad time to have hockey on, especially at start times like 5 p.m. on the West Coast.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They should think about starting the season in September like they do in the CHL and in the European leagues. That way they can be done by the World Championships, which would especially great if they no longer send NHL’ers to the Olympics.

And you wouldn’t have hockey in June which apparently is problematic for some.

Great blog by the way. Keep up the good work.

by chileiceman on Jun 9, 2009 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely agree with this. The issue is they’re worried about competing with the MLB and NFL if they move the season earlier.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I certainly see the validity of this argument, they’re foolish not to try to move some of their other events too drum up some more interest. My dad has mentioned, and I wholeheartedly agree with him, that the Winter Classic has too much to compete with on New Year’s Day, between college football, hangovers, etc. Why not move it to the perpetually dead weekend between the NFL Conference Championships and the Superbowl, which is pretty much the worst weekend of the year to be a sports fan?

At the same time, even with all the buzz the Blackhawks generated this season, people still spent some time focusing on the Bears, Cubs, and White Sox. The NHL can’t make those sports go away. They have to commit to making their product the best it can be and not try to tiptoe around the other sports (aside from the obvious one I mentioned above)

by hawksfan21 on Jun 9, 2009 2:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention college football in the States.

And even high school football once you get far enough South. No, I’m not joking. Look at the size of high school football stadia in Texas.

Americans would flip this argument completely over. You guys talk about it being too nice in June to pay attention to hockey. Conversely, down here it’s not so hard for the hockey fans among us to stay in the hockey mood when the alternative is summer heat (and besides, it makes for great tailgating weather). But in October, it’s hard to jump into hockey when nobody’s eliminated in the NFL yet, college football is in mid-season conference play, and the MLB playoffs are taking up the whole month.

I’d love to see a 72-game regular season that started in November. Less regular-season wear and tear on the players would make the playoffs even better, hockey would suffer less media starvation at a time we should be aiming for saturation coverage, and it’s actually starting to get cold here.

That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.

by JoshCVT on Jun 9, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And remove the ridiculous 5 or 6 day breaks during the year that every team has at least once or twice.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 9, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But as it is now they compete with those leagues anyway. Move up the season and at least they won’t have that much competition from the NBA playoffs.

by chileiceman on Jun 9, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or move it back by three weeks

And have the WS act as a lead-in to a full slate of West Coast season openers.

The number two rated TV show of the year is often the show that airs after the Super Bowl. Schedule games in Anaheim, LA, SJ, Vcr, Phx, Cld, Cgy and Edm for the final Saturday night in October and hope that it follows the World Series clinching game.

You’d attract viewers from NFL towns whose team sits at 2-7 or 3-6.

Then have the Finals run into late June (as they did in ’95), thereby avoiding competition with the NBA. What else am I going to watch in the third week of June? The Entry Draft can only keep me entertained for the first night.

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

These results to the poll are intriguing. It seems like the blog has more American readers than Canadian (not surprising, considering the US in 10x bigger).

Hey, now, James gets very touchy at this kind of language. 9x bigger, thank you very much.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Damn straight. If we’re going to throw numbers around, let’s at least have them be right.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Canadians are so cute when they’re indignant.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Should we start making fun of Michigan now?

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely, though I prefer to make fun of Minnesota. Making fun of Michigan at this point is like laughing at the handicapped kid at school.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Careful – we’ll send you all the wacky Yoopers to deal with. :)

"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams

by Baroque on Jun 9, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 1972, the States were 9.5 X the size of Canada.

At this rate, America will only be eight times as big by the year 2080…
only seven times as big by the year 2150
and Canada will be the bigger nation by the end of the 26th century, though we’ll both just be provinces of China long before then.

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One word: immigration. It does wonders for Canada’s population.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 2:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think if you consider yourself to be a hockey fan, there’s no good reason to not watch the SCF. Would a NFL miss the Super Bowl? I think not.

Huh, I guess I’m not a fan of the NFL then because I haven’t sat down to watch the Super Bowl in a couple of years (teams I’m not interested in/Mannings). The fact that I watch every regular season game for my favorite team and spend $$ on merchandise isn’t enough. I’ll turn in my fan card. Thanks for the heads up.

2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity

by Mike @ MHH on Jun 10, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

… on some level, does it not make some sense to pursue the 300 million people in the U.S. who aren’t watching the finals as opposed to the 30 million who aren’t watching in this country?

Well, not necessarily. After all, there are a billion people in China who aren’t watching either.

The question isn’t how many people aren’t watching, it’s how many people aren’t watching who you have some realistic hope of converting into viewers. My guess is that would bring the US total down significantly.

And a secondary question would be how many existing fans, in each country, do you risk losing as you continue to focus on chasing after these non-fans? And “losing” doesn’t even need to mean somebody turning off the game completely, just tuning in less than they used to.

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Jun 8, 2009 7:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You have two established markets on this continent: Canada and the US. You have a larger number of potential new viewers in the US. From that stand point, it makes a lot of sense to try and lure more of us in. It’s all about revenue. Like it or not, the NHL is a business. It will do what it feels will best suit its bottom line. If anything, the NHL’s success in places like California and Nashville, (yes, Nashville), should prove that there are more potential new viewers down here than generally assumed.

We don’t always like the coverage or deals the NHL works out with networks either, but we have to take what they give us. Even if that means NBC on at 9am on a Sunday showing the Rangers. (no offense to Rangers fans, but we do get tired of seeing the same three eastern teams every weekend.) Hopefully, one day, it will lead to better deals we can (mostly) all be satisfied with.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, there are a lot of potential viewers in the US, but, if the league doesn’t spend any time considering the opportunity costs of chasing them, it deserves what it gets.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The costs of trying to get the last dregs of an already overly saturated market (Canada) will be higher due to lack of return. The cost of trying to saturate and draw in new viewers from an undersaturated market (US) has greater potential to be made up in revenue from those new fans.

This really seems to boil down to a disagreement with the leagues interpretation of what television markets are worth perusing and whether or not going after new markets alienates established ones. Sadly, it also seems to break down on a nationalistic level in some cases. As a baseball fan, that logic is foreign to me. I’m used to seeing my national pastime spread out globally. I love that people outside the US love it. Doesn’t matter to me where they live.

The sport is good. I want to share it.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

*league's

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you are underestimating the problems and difficulties of chasing the rest of the American market. Really, the country isn’t crying out for a new sporting experience. I think that the US is every bit as saturated a market as Canada is, once you realize that the product is really “sports” rather than “hockey.” MLS is looking like it’s going to be a success, but it’s playing for a niche, rather than being about securing the huge network deal. It’s also not trying to put teams everywhere.

I don’t think that NHL revenue growth is going to come from TV at all. If the league wants revenues to grow, it’s going to have to do it at the box office. Where is it going to sell more tickets?

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I’m just more optimistic about the chances. I don’t feel like the US, as a whole, should be written off due to potential difficulties. To declare the US sports market saturated underestimates the passion for sports this country has. Alternatively, perhaps saying Canada is a saturated hockey market is also an underestimate of the passion Canada has for their sport. Regardless, you still have more potential new viewers here in the states. That’s not a fact one can avoid.

Americans love sports. Look at how big NASCAR got in outside the South. (For clarity, South = the areas of the country the seceded during the Civil War as opposed to all of the geographically southern US.) The sports culture here is quite strong and I have a hard time believing it’s satisfied. That’s just an observation based on my own cultural experiences. Your experience may be different.

As for the MLS, soccer/futbol is also a sport many American children grow up playing. It’s still considered a niche sport, but one should keep in mind that it already has a fairly large mind share thanks to it’s popularity as a childhood sport.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the end

it doesn’t matter what we think. The NHL will do what it thinks is best. We don’t have to agree or even like it, but the NHL, like all sports leagues, will do what IT wants. I have a feeling all of us here are still going to go to games, watch games, and buy merch, so it doesn’t really matter to them if we disagree with their plans. We’re already in.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have a discussion about the issues around the NHL’s choices and how they’re affecting the fan base and the game.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

totally!

but it’s a valid point. The NHL already has us, so we don’t matter. I wouldn’t mind if someone from the League is reading this to get a feel for what the fans want, but I’m not holding my breath.

I’ll happily continue to discuss the issue, even if I realize it’s futile. It’s a very compelling topic.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 9, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soccer has been a big youth sport for more than thirty years, and it has never translated into being a sport that lots of adults watch.

I think that the US sports market is saturated. I never run into anyone who says that there aren’t enough sports on the TV for them to watch. On the contrary; I hear people say that they can’t keep up with everything. For hockey to go up in the ratings, it’s going to have to take that market share away from something else. This is what is happening with the various niche TV networks, such as the Golf Channel, or the Big 10 Network; those are viewers that used to watch something else. (ESPN’s baseball coverage is getting hammered by the MLB Network, though, that’s not all that surprising, given how good MLB’s stuff is, and how bad ESPN’s baseball coverage is.)

If there is more overall money to be made in US sports TV, I think it’s going to have to come from increasing use of pay-per-view. I think the NHL would be much better served by figuring out how to use the Internet properly than by chasing after a big TV contract. That’s where MLB’s revenue increases have been coming from. MLB Advanced Media is a well run juggernaut that has turned into a ridiculous cash cow. The midget should spend less time worrying about NBC, and more time worrying about the fact that his Internet operation is almost as appealing as goatse.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the NHL would be much better served by figuring out how to use the Internet properly than by chasing after a big TV contract.

I agree with this completely. I’ve been saying they should switch to a micro payment system all season. The cost to get out of market only games online is ridiculous. And if I pay for NHL online, I can’t watch in market games that are radio only locally. It’s craptacular. I can’t afford it or NHL network on my TV. It’s very frustrating. Center Ice is also out of the question.

Do I think the NHL will pursue a better internet viewing system? No. But I would be happy to have them surprise me.

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 8, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You aren’t going to get around the blackouts any time soon. For one thing, doing away with them would violate the contracts that a lot of regional channels have with local teams. They pay for exclusive broadcast rights in those areas. Until teams think that there is more money to be made from Internet broadcasts being available locally than what the channels pay them for exclusivity, they aren’t going to be available. That’s true even for games that the cable channels don’t broadcast; from their perspective (though not the team’s), being able to watch any games through another outlet is dilutive.

by J. Michael Neal on Jun 8, 2009 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not legally, no. So I guess the question at what point do the illegal streams make you decide to look at other options? And how does that affect the NHL’s overall approach to the internet as a viewing market?

resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"

by CTGray on Jun 9, 2009 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the NHL would be much better served by figuring out how to use the Internet properly than by chasing after a big TV contract.

One great thing that they have done with the internet is that they’ve embraced youtube.

by Bosc Ulrich on Jun 9, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NHL really doesn’t believe it can alienate Canadian fans enough to hurt their bottom line, so it’s never been a concern of theirs. And given all the sellouts in the six Canadian NHL cities, it’s hard to disagree with that.

Obviously there are a lot of Americans who will never, ever watch hockey, but who among us thought they could find 15,000 a night to go to games in Nashville at prices that really aren’t that low any more? There’ve been some surprising gains in some parts of the U.S.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 8, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just my 2 cents

I live in Florida and I been watching as much as I can. It matters how the game goes, close game I will watch more. Learning hockey this year after doing some volunteer work with the Lightning so just watching to learn more about it.

Also this blog is great, keep up the good work. It helps a neophyte like me of the game learn some more.

Swav or Die
For the lulz

by SRQman on Jun 8, 2009 11:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It matters how the game goes, close game I will watch more.

That’s how I decide to watch a game between a couple teams I don’t have a particular attachment to, also. If the game looks like a blowout – or very poorly played – I turn it off.

And I hope Tampa can get their stuff together next year, for the sake of the fans. Good luck. :)

"A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." -- Tennessee Williams

by Baroque on Jun 9, 2009 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It would be nice to have them win. The management needs to get it together.

Swav or Die
For the lulz

by SRQman on Jun 9, 2009 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m a bit worried that market is going to get utterly destroyed.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Will it?

If anything, it will turn into a market where more people see the visiting team than the home team because of all the transplants that aren’t necessarily Lightning fans. It seems to already be the case with teams like Buffalo when they come to town.

"Hey! Farmboy! Maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you."

"So get some more guys and then it'll be an even fight."

by Afino on Jun 9, 2009 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I went to a Lightning-Red Wings game at St. Petes Times Forum in ’99. The entire lower bowl was a sea of red, and I think it was one of, if not the first sellout in franchise history.

Transplants are great to have, but to sustain and grow a market and the game you definitely want to get the local population interested in the home team and not just the visiting teams. Transplants will get you some good home gate numbers against some teams, but not a whole lot else for a team in Tampa Bay’s division(vs a division like Buffalo). How many Carolina, Washington, and Miami transplants will help the Tampa gates 6 times a year? The Lightning also have some horrid local television numbers:

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/62238

SRQman, good on you for supporting and getting involved!

by Bosc Ulrich on Jun 9, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Regardining seeing other teams

it was mostly Red Wings, NY teams, Bruins, Caps, Pens and all the teams from Canada where it was filled with other fans.

The thing they need to do to get people in is win. Tampa is very bandwagon, The sad thing is they were trying to find ways to almost give away tickets near the end.

It was fun though volunteering, even ran into a couple players like St. Louis, Lecavalier and Ovechkin,

Swav or Die
For the lulz

by SRQman on Jun 9, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

…which is a huge shame because that market was doing well prior to the lockout. Even after the lockout, when he was looking at putting a group together to buy the team Doug MacLean said on the FAN in Toronto said that they were a top-10 revenue team.

Can you imagine if the ownership group exercises their out clause and hands that team back to Davidson?

by Bosc Ulrich on Jun 9, 2009 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately they’ll be handing it to someone else these days.

Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com

by James Mirtle on Jun 9, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn it

I had April in my pool. Only missed by three weeks.

;-)

(too soon?)

by TD O'Dell on Jun 9, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t say which Davidson :)

by Bosc Ulrich on Jun 9, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You and me both.

Cassie
"And will that be cash, hip check, or Raw Charge today?"

by Cassie McClellan on Jun 9, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in case anyone missed it higher up the comment tree

Canadian Metro populations (2006 estimates):

1. Toronto 5,113,149
2. Montreal 3,635,571
3. Vancouver 2,116,581
4. Ottawa 1,130,761
5. Calgary 1,079,310
6. Edmonton 1,034,945
-
7. Quebec City 715,515
8. Winnipeg 694,668
9. Hamilton 692,911
10. London 457,720

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada

by VA Libertarian on Jun 9, 2009 11:52 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The Salt Lake City MSA would be 5th on that list…

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." - George Washington

by Hockey Beard in SLC on Jun 11, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs


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