Could we see more Coyotes relocation bids?
Judge Redfield Baum agreed, at the request of the league and the city, to postpone to Sept. 10 the auction of the financially flailing team originally scheduled for Wednesday, to give bidders who are promising to keep the team in Glendale more time to finalize their offers.
The judge said he would decide by Wednesday whether to continue a separate auction for bidders aiming to relocate the team. That already had been scheduled for Sept. 10.
At one point yesterday, the judge had suggested having one big auction, with relocation and non-relocation bids alike, both to take place a little over a month from now and just as 2009-10 training camps are beginning to open. It's a strategy that makes some sense, as that would allow the judge to compare all bids side-by-side and weigh the merits of each in terms of compensating creditors.
Where it's not practical is in the fact that, if opened to a general bidding process, an NHL team that was (theoretically) clear to sail off to any locale would likely be a desirable commodity. Simply opening the floor to a relocation auction at all will be a whole new can of worms, one that, if conducted on the eve of the coming season, will create an even bigger sideshow in the desert as every potential new home is trotted out in plain view of the franchise's remaining fans.
And, yet, with the two local bids facing serious opposition, we could get to that point.
Here's current Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes in a recent filing in response to the NHL's notion that, after the rejection of Jim Balsillie, there's no need for a relocation auction at all:
"... the NHL takes the position that there is no other 'relocation bidder' given the NHL's actions with respect to PSE [Balsillie] as set forth in the NHL notice... Of course, this assumes that no other relocation bidders will come forward. To this point, and in light of the Court's determinations at the June 22, 2009, hearing, relocation bids were not being entertained at all until after the August 5 auction date, and then only if a Glendale based bidder was not approved. Of course there are no other relocation bids — they were not being entertained or solicited. As such, it is disingenuous at best to say there are no potential relocation bidders out there..."
In other words, Balsillie isn't the only hope on that front. Moyes, after all, has very little interest in where the franchise relocates to, be it Hamilton or outer space; what he's after is the largest dollar figure possible, and in that regard, the more bids, the better.
As I said, however, the circus to this point will seem relatively modest compared to Balsillie bidding against other out-of-town suitors, and I wouldn't be surprised to see other Canadian groups — along with NHL-okayed candidates from Kansas City and the like — enter the fray.
If the Coyotes ever hit the auction block with a potential ticket out of town, we're going to need a big top.
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In other words, Balsillie isn’t the only hope on that front. Moyes, after all, has very little interest in where the franchise relocates to, be it Hamilton or outer space; what he’s after is the largest dollar figure possible, and in that regard, the more bids, the better.
One would think so, James, but puzzlingly that is not what Moyes’ overall positions point to. In proposing a Sep 10th auction, he is turning the relocation auction into a one-horse race. No one has been reported to have done a scrap of due diligence for a relocation. Without doing the due diligence, no one can make a proper bid (you get the ephemeral bids like the Jones group, if you are lucky). There may be bidders out there who would conceivably be interested but don’t today have the arena deals in place in other cities, for example. All that would take a lot more tan a month to put together.
On my reading of the filings, the NHL has stated that a relocation auction should occur after it has been marketed and all parties have done their due diligence, got their other-city arena deals in place, get their financing, etc.
by Gerald on Aug 4, 2009 9:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure AEG has done due diligence for a team in Kansas City, and they certainly have an arena. I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if someone besides Ballsillie has done due diligence for a move to Ontario.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 4, 2009 10:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t there a group looking at building an arena in one of the GTA suburbs, like Etobicoke or York or something, for a second Toronto team? They could be a potential suitor, if they have the paperwork in hand.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do they have an arena though? I’m really not familiar with the Toronto area, but I thought the only NHL ready rink in the GTA was the ACC (which can’t support a second team), then you had to move to Copps in Hamilton.
by Habs on Aug 4, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s entirely in the proposal stage right now, but maybe they could operate out of Copps for a year or three while the arena builds. When the Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary in 1980, they played three years out of an old minor-league barn (the Stampede Corral) while they built the Saddledome, and while times have changed since the early ‘80s, Copps isn’t exactly a minor-league barn, either.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, there’s nowhere to play but the ACC, which is why everyone will look to Hamilton more than anything.
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by James Mirtle on Aug 4, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was one group that wanted to locate the team in Vaughn (north of Toronto) and another smoke and mirrors group that wanted to build a 30K stadium complete with unicorns and rainbows on demand.
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by PPP on Aug 4, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unicorns and rainbows on demand? I’m very intrested in subscribing to their newsletter.
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by saskhab on Aug 4, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear unicorn steaks are very tasty.
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by Baroque on Aug 4, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Vaughn group is probably the one I’m thinking of. I had totally forgotten about the Toronto Sunshine and Lollipops.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Philip Anschutz is listed as the LA Kings owner, and he also owns AEG. I don’t think the NHL would allow him to own 2 teams.
Also it’s important to note that AEG doesn’t own the Sprint Center, it’s owned by Kansas City (much like Glendale owns Jobing.com Arena). AEG however does have the contract to manage the arena.
by Habs on Aug 4, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps it’s Moyes’s opinion that no-one who had done due diligence would offer more than Balsillie’s current bid, and the faster he goes to auction, the faster he can get his money and end this mess.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 4, 2009 10:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That may be, but speed is a different motivator than “largest amount possible”.
by Gerald on Aug 4, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure they have done the due diligence on that end. I am referring to the due diligence on the other end – the PHO business itself. The 50 players contracts, the coaching and scouting deals , all that stuff that a purchaser would need to think about taking on (or not). The financing. Deal-specific stuff.
I am not even sure AEG would have done that for KC, since they cannot own another team.
by Gerald on Aug 4, 2009 10:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Would that be something they’d consider doing in advance, to lessen the workload for whatever party wanted to bring a team to their arena? I’d certainly consider it at least a minor selling point if the arena owners had paperwork in hand that I could take to the NHL to demonstrate the relative feasibility, at least on the KC end.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Or arena management. Habs posted just after me, and I see the distinction.)
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On my reading of the filings, the NHL has stated that a relocation auction should occur after it has been marketed and all parties have done their due diligence, got their other-city arena deals in place, get their financing, etc.
If I was the judge, I’d be starting to lose a little patience with the NHL. This process has been delayed, to a certain extent, by the positions taken by the NHL. Fair enough – the judge obviously accepted those positions as reasonable. With another season of Coyotes’ hockey and big losses staring everyone in the face though, the net result of further delay – which may well be reasonable, I don’t do enough of this work to say – is going to be the NHL pouring more money into this team, at the expense of other creditors, for a better offer that may not exist.
I’m interested in your take on how this will all play out Gerald. My thinking at present is that the Reinsdorf bid just seems to have too many hurdles to realistically be expected to go anywhere, plus the creditors will have a hard time swallowing it unless the judge says that Balsillie is a non-starter. The Ice Edge bid looks insane.
I can’t see how this will end without the judge ruling one way or another on Balsillie or other relocation options simply because that looks to me to be the one that will best serve the creditors. I don’t necessarily think Balsillie is going to be the guy who gets the team – my sense from following this is that the judge would prefer not to wade into the NHL’s policies – but the local options just seem so bad that I kind of think he’ll be forced to.
I’m kind of intending to do a post on the Balsillie/Daly exchange of affidavits, just because I think it’s interesting to see what the NHL is trying to hang their hat on here. My initial sense from reviewing them is that unless the NHL is willing to get into the OSC stuff, there’s not a lot there. I mean, Balsillie is tagging on emails from lawyers that seem to indicate his understanding at the time was as he has said all along. If I’m the judge – and knowing that judges are loathe to find that people are lying when there are reasonable explanations otherwise – I’m not inclined to make much of all this.
Similarly, Daly’s affidavit discloses some (IMO) pretty ridiculous disclosure requests – the NHL wanted copies of all emails Balsillie had sent about the league’s relocation rules. Presumably, most of that would involve exchanges with counsel and would be privileged, in any event. Again, if I’m a judge, this wouldn’t strike me as being evidence of a guy who has a problem playing by the rules – I’m not in the habit of advising my clients to produce emails that they’ve exchanged with me.
by mc79hockey on Aug 4, 2009 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My only question is: Does anybody think that the league is going to let a US Court dictate who owns and where a franchise is located? Would the BOG pull the plug if that was the scenario?
2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity
by Mike @ MHH on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can they pull the plug? Who compensates the creditors involved here?
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Aug 4, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would the league care? Aren’t the creditor’s Moyes problem? Can’t they revoke a franchise if they want? Aren’t they (the league) a creditor?
2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity
by Mike @ MHH on Aug 5, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The creditors aren’t Moyes problem; they are creditors of the Phoenix Coyotes. Unless the debts are wiped out in bankruptcy, they follow the team. If the NHL revoked the franchise, the creditors would then sue the league.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 5, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No privity of contract between the NHL and other creditors.
No duty of care between the NHL and the creditors.
Absent either of those, there is no basis for a suit.
As an aside, in the course of the bankruptcy there is a stay. As such, the NHL cannot revoke the franchise during the bankruptcy proceedings. Afterwards, there would have to be a default, and the cure provisions in the consent agreement would need to be adhered to by the parties, but that is something else entirely. As it stands now, the NHL cannot revoke the franchise tomorrow.
by Gerald on Aug 6, 2009 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After saying that there’s no basis for a suit, you then lay out all the reasons that there would be a basis for a suit if the NHL revoked the franchise after it goes to Ballsillie. I’m not sure how you think that this is contradicting me. The creditors would sue the NHL because they improperly revoked the franchise.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 6, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume that you are referring to the “as an aside” part. The creditors would not have standing to complain in this regard. Technically it would be the debtors who would (successfully) file against the NHL for violating the stay if they tried to do it in bankruptcy (which the NHL would not do, since stays are ABC-level bankruptcy law). As well, they would not “sue”; they would simply bring a motion in the current bankruptcy matter.
My first two items were assuming that you were talking about the NHL revoking the franchise after the bankruptcy. I think there was a misunderstanding on my or your or both parts.
by Gerald on Aug 7, 2009 5:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter what it would like to think, the league isn’t above the law… pulling the plug when there are valid purchase bids that cover the team’s debts on the table, just to prevent the bankrupt team from relocating, isn’t going to fly with the bankruptcy judge…
by Habs on Aug 4, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not let the court award the whole bag to balsillie, have him pay off the creditors, and then find a reason to revoke his franchise?
2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity
by Mike @ MHH on Aug 5, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy crap! I thought I was cynical.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
by Smoboy41 on Aug 5, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn that’s diabolical! Not sure the NHL can just revoke a franchise without compensating the owner, though I’m really not that familiar with the NHL’s bylaws… maybe it’s doable, but for sure it would mean near-endless negative publicity on the NHL!
by Habs on Aug 5, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And a string of lawsuits that would never end.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 5, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The grounds for revoking franchises are contractually articulated in the Constitution, By-laws and Consent Agreement, of that I am certain. i am sure that, even if there is a default, there are cure rights for the franchisee as well. I doubt that this could work, as any franchisee would movve heaven and earth to cure any defaults.
by Gerald on Aug 6, 2009 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have lots of views on that. THey will have to wait util later tonight, though. Vacation fun awaits.
by Gerald on Aug 4, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As requested, here is my take:
1. it is pretty easily arguable that the date of closing is somewhat of a wash (although probably not entirely). In determining the value of the team, purchasers will be assuming that at best the first few years will involve a bit of a financial hammering, due in large part to the damage that the franchise has incurred as a result of the proceeding. To the extent that someone else (NHL) will foot the bill for a part of that period, that should generate a higher price. That is generally how ot works, subject to the assumption that there is a competitive bidding process, of course. A smaller transition period with losses necessarily increases the value of the team.
2. The only way that the NHL will cover the losses for another entire season is if the relocation is the result. In that case, the returns should be significantly higher than the Glendale bids, which offsets the NHL’s loss coverages.
3. I have long suspected that people’s perceptions of the Reinsdorf offer having so many “hurdles” is misplaced. My sense of it is that the Glendale deal is a lot closer to being done than people believe. Just on the reported deal points, I can easily see viable compromises on all of the points that should result in a win/win, which is what the City truly needs to sell the deal. The SOF issue is really far easier than people think. I am sure they are negotiating hard as we speak on terms and conditions, but I highly doubt that the SOF loan will be a deal-breaker. Even if SOF wants to get paid out, I believe that Reinsdorf can arrange it. He is a valuable banking customer, and Kaites and he have all sorts of relationships. IceEdge – not so sure about financing there.
4. I do not think the IceEdge thing is insane at all. If correctly structured as a temporary thing for only a few regular seasons while they get the PHO market recouped, and provided it is used for markets which are no challenge to PHO (Like Saskatoon), it is quite workable.
5. Baum J. will have to pull the trigger on JB eventually, and I don’t see that he has much choice but to accept the NHL’s business judgment. He has to give it considerable deference, and i have seen nothing that is patently unreasonable regarding their conclusions. At the end of the day, their conclusion is that they do not trust him, and that is a really good reason not to enter into a partnership with someone.
6. While anything can of course happen, I do not see him as creating an all-in auction. He would only want to do so if there were qualified out-of-town bidders, and the simple fact is that there are none at this point in time, and there almost surely will not be one at an auction in September. Really – there is less than a zero percent chance. For out-of-towners who have not stepped up yet, there is no time for the NHL to approve them. If JB tries to litigate his rejection, that will not be resolved by September. No chance.
7. I encourage you to do a post on those affidavits. I am sure it would be interesting, although I read them entirely differently. The emails that you refer to for JB really encompasses just one email of PITT’s investment banker, which does not read anything close to an endorsement of JB’s position. To the contrary, JB’s own affidavit clearly establishes that counsel was quite aware that approval of JB was always up in the air on the PITT deal. The fact that the NHL has contemporaneous written memos is also generally persuasive to the courts. At the end of the day, it is all about trust, and the NHL has ample grounds in my view. From the record, it is crystal clear that the BoG has sniffed out JB’s Hamilton gambit even as far back as PITT, and were trying to protect against JB merely giving PITT a cursory effort and then bailing to Hamilton.
8. I would expect a lot of them would involve discussions with Rodier. While I would have thought that they would be privileged, that idea has been crushed by the admission of JB’s own counsel, Kaye Scholer (Vicky Gilbert), who confirmed in no uncertain terms that Rodier was not under any circumstances JB’s counsel. As such, none of those emails would have been privileged. Secondly, while I can appreciate your litigator’s view about revealing privileged emails, in a business deal context such a position is completely incongruous. You are giving people your SIN #, your bank account #‘s and balances of same, and every financial and personal detail up to your shoe size and beyond, and then you assert privilege over some emails? Beyond the privilege claims that are only appropriate in a litigation context (not a business context), JB apparently tried to spin an electronic tale as to why he could not technically produce them, except that he did so in the face of a couple of pioneers in the computer business who apparently knew better. He could not produce them because they were on RIM’s servers and he would have to ask permission, which he felt it unnecessary to ask when using those same servers for his personal business in the first place?
So, all in all, as far as the court’s conclusions and my predictions:
1. Sep 10 will remain a Glendale only auction.
2. Relocation auction to be adjourned sine die*, or without a set date at this time (but to be addressed on Sep 10).
- - first latin I have used in a looooong time, but i know you litigators use that legal mumbo jumbo.
3. He may try to defer JB decision one more time, but hopefully he will realize he has dragged it on long enough. Legally, he does not need to decide it to rule on the NHL’s deferral motion, which after all is what is in front of him. He has tended to only rule on what he has to, so he may conceivably try to run out the clock on JB one more time. If he can get to a Glendale bid that he can live with as judge, he MAY be able to get out of this without ruling on JB, as it may never become ripe. That is a tough road for him to hoe, though.
4. If he ever is forced to rule on the NHL’s treatment of JB, my reading of the cases is that the NHL is well within its powers. The business judgment principle gives them more than enough leeway.
by Gerald on Aug 4, 2009 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How far along is the Las Vegas bid? Is it a conceivable option?
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by stufflife on Aug 4, 2009 12:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There isn’t one as of yet.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Aug 4, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is zero chance of a Vegas bid. There is no owner, no building, and the economy here is a complete disaster. It’s essentially Phoenix with a smaller population, more entertainment alternatives, and no arena.
by yeah_eric on Aug 4, 2009 1:27 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Well, technically, Jerry Bruckheimer has expressed interest in an NHL team in Vegas. He hasn’t, though, said boo about the Coyotes during all of this.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bruckheimer’s interest has always been just that, interest. The rumors about Bruckheimer bringing a team to Vegas started at the same time that AEG siad they planned to build a new arena in the parking lot behind Planet Hollywood/Paris. That was three years ago and PH employees continue to park their cars there on a daily basis. We’ve got a great ECHL team in a phenomenal facility, but that’s as much puck as this town will ever accept.
by yeah_eric on Aug 4, 2009 11:44 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It’s too bad that Seattle doesn’t have an arena. Or anyone interested in owning an NHL team there that I know of, for that matter. The NHL could have a long-awaited dream come true, otherwise. Despite Portland (Ore.) having an NHL arena.
Cassie
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by Cassie McClellan on Aug 4, 2009 1:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ve lived in Portland for a while and there sure wasn’t much hockey interest, at least that I could feel. Not sure if it has enough population for an NHL team either…
by Habs on Aug 4, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Key Arena hosted the WHL Seattle Thunderbirds for a number of years, but they’ve since moved on to Kent, Washington. I don’t know if the arena even kept its iceplant. There is a long minor league history in the US northwest, but as far as the NHL goes ( like Habs says), there doesn’t seem to be much interest.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
by Smoboy41 on Aug 4, 2009 1:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lack of interest has not stopped the NHL from relocating franchises to regions before. :)
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by saskhab on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they should move the coyotes to either quebec city, winnipeg, or hamilton. bettmen needs to realize that hockey isn’t going to work in the desert.
by asmallvictory31 on Aug 4, 2009 2:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Correction...
losing hockey won’t work in the desert…as losing football, baseball and basketball also won’t work in this city…however, come out to a Detroit or Chicago or NY or Philly or [insert your favorite Canadian team here] game and see how many transplants that are living here and care about hockey…if the team was good, it would be able to draw fans and be successful just as much as any other franchise (save the 10 or so that have such a fanbase that they can charge whatever they want for tickets – i.e., Toronto, NYR, Detroit, Philly, Montreal, etc.).
I’m really tired of hearing that hockey isn’t going to work here…it can work just fine, it just needs some leadership. And for all the proof you need look at the youth hockey programs before the Coyotes came to Phoenix and now…there is plenty of interest in hockey in Phoenix, but there is not another city that has as many fairweather fans in it in the US…and it’s going to take a playoff run for people to come out…but that is not an indication that it isn’t going to work…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Moridin417 on Aug 4, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am entirely agnostic as ti whether hockey could work in Phoenix. I am unpersuaded by talk of youth hockey, though. Youth soccer has been huge for decades in this country, but that doesn’t mean we can support a soccer league in any way comparable tp the NHL, NBA, NFL, or MLB.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 4, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you have said the same for Washington, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Colorado, and the Islanders. Should all of those teams been moved because at the time of their financial struggles they were horribly -run franchises in markets that have proven at one time or another that they ARE viable hockey markets?
Why must a market support a team through thick and thin to be considered viable? Should fans have to sit through a horrible product 41 times a year just so they can feel good about themselves?
2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity
by Mike @ MHH on Aug 5, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there’s a difference between “financial struggles” and $30-million in losses in a single season and very few options on the ownership front. I’m not sure we’ve ever seen a team as financial stressed as the Coyotes are right now.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Aug 6, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly i am not aware where an owner has abandoned his franchise as Moyes did. i guarantee you that no owner will ever get as much leeway as Moyes was given, ever again.
by Gerald on Aug 6, 2009 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good point. Moyes is a major player in any of this taking place.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Aug 6, 2009 2:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But my point still stands regarding “market viability”. If Moyes is the root of all evil, then why is everybody in America’s hat proclaiming that the market can’t support the team? Hasn’t the market supported the team when the team was good/decent? Isn’t that a precedent?
I’m not trying to split hairs regarding the financial woes of the ‘Yotes. They’re in a horrible situation. But that situation wasn’t created by lack of support. The horrible mismanagement + lease + arena were the catalysts for the franchise going in the crapper. When the team went south in a Islander-esque way, the fans stopped coming, just like in Chicago, Buffalo, Pittsburg, etc. yet nobody has ever claimed those aren’t viable markets.
2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Dry Humping Mediocrity
by Mike @ MHH on Aug 6, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that situation wasn’t created by lack of support. The horrible mismanagement + lease + arena were the catalysts for the franchise going in the crapper. When the team went south in a Islander-esque way, the fans stopped coming, just like in Chicago, Buffalo, Pittsburg, etc. yet nobody has ever claimed those aren’t viable markets.
That’s not supported by the facts, Mike. James’ post on June 3rd showed that since the lockout, the Coyotes averaged 12,232 paid tickets per game. Before the lockout, they averaged 12,047. There hasn’t been a material change in the number of paying customers, and they had a playoff team most of those pre-lockout years.
by Robert Cleave on Aug 6, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hasn’t the market supported the team when the team was good/decent? Isn’t that a precedent?
Where’s your evidence for this? They’ve lost money every season, despite making the playoff more often than not in the beginning, and the losses have only gotten worse in the new facility.
Phoenix has always had low attendance, for one reason or another. I’m not sure why you think otherwise. Since moving from Winnipeg, the average paid number of tickets per game is just 12,000.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Aug 6, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But my point still stands regarding "market viability". If Moyes is the root of all evil, then why is everybody in America’s hat proclaiming that the market can’t support the team?
Because there isn’t anyone stepping forward who wants to buy the team, keep it in Arizona, and be responsible for its profits and losses. The closest thing we have is the Reinsdorf bid, and even that involves the city of Glendale covering up to $15 million a year in losses after five years, or Reinsdorf can sell the team with the city releasing it from the lease.
One of the things that is necessary for a marker to be viable is someone willing to be the owner.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 6, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry. That was meant as a reply to Mike.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 6, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Move the Jets back to Canada to Quebec City. Two big corporations have recently shown their interest in bringing a team back to Qc City, Quebecor and Remstar.
by Fred Poulin on Aug 4, 2009 3:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And…? What have they done to bring back an NHL club?
Where would the Quebec Coyotes play? Colisée Pepsi with it’s 15k seats and outdated everything? All 3 levels of government have already made it clear there would be no public funds used to build a new arena…
Big corporations have shown interest in bringing back an NHL club to Quebec City since the day the Nords moved out. You need to realize Quebecor is saying this purely for publicity purposes after losing out on the Canadiens sweepstakes – they have never even met with Remstar.
by Habs on Aug 4, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides, you can’t really bring back what the Nordiques were to the Canadiens. It’d be like pretending the Wild and the Blackhawks have a rivalry because the North Stars and the ’Hawks pounded the hell out of each other a dozen times a year in the 80s.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
by Doogie2K on Aug 4, 2009 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wisconsin
It seems like the logical choice. They could play in Madison (Wisconsin Badgers) while they build an NHL arena in Milwaukee. They could still stay in the West and a major realignment would not be needed.
by Altitude on Aug 5, 2009 1:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You aren’t going to get a new arena in Milwaukee. The place is just getting crushed in the current economy. The Bradley Center is at least tolerable for hockey; I’ve been there for two NCAA Frozan Fours. I don’t think Milwaukee can really support another pro sports team, but, if it happens, it’ll have to happen in the Bradley Center.
by J. Michael Neal on Aug 5, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Brewers seem to have good attendance and local tv ratings. If Milwaukee can support the Bucks and Brewers, they can support an NHL team.
by Altitude on Aug 7, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t the Bucks in tough attendance wise? They never seem to draw that well. Although they spend about in the middle of the NBA.
Milwaukee doesn’t strike me as big enough for all four major sports.
Blogging on hockey at fromtherink.com
by James Mirtle on Aug 7, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No NFL in Milwaukee.
Milwaukee is actually closer to Chicago (90 miles) than Green Bay (120 miles); while there are probably a lot of Cheeseheads and Bears fans in the city, it isn’t home to an NFL team.
Having said that, I’m not convinced Milwaukee could support three pro teams. 41 + 41 + 81 + preseasons and playoffs = paid events in town for more than half the calendar year.
I think an NHL franchise could work in Madison, but I’ve yet to see anyone show the interest in making it happen.
by BleedBlue42 on Aug 8, 2009 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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